Regardless, Obama agreed to use public financing and did not. Likewise, his BS excuse is laughable given that his allies are the big 527’s, and have been since that particular law went into effect.
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
…given that his allies are the big 527’s, and have been since that particular law went into effect.
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You mean, like money from the big pharmaceutical interests? Well, maybe not so much, huh. Or Halliburton and Exxon? Perhaps not. Guys like Richard Mellon Scaife? Don’t seem likely some how.
Crap, it just hit me! The sneaky bastard is getting his money from people!
[Charlton Heston] Obama’s green is people! Obama’s green is people!..[/CH]
McCain would’ve answered it, but he couldn’t remember what his position was on the matter.
[QUOTE=Fish]
McCain would’ve answered it, but he couldn’t remember what his position was on the matter.
[/QUOTE]
It was Tuesday, so he was against.
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
Regardless, Obama agreed to use public financing and did not.
[/QUOTE]
In other words, Obama succeeded where McCain failed.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
There are 527 groups now who have already promised a full court swiftboating not only of Barack Obama, but of his wife. The guy resposnibel for the Willie Horton ad is saying he’s going to run commercials accusing Obama of being a Muslim and of lying about it. I think the last straw was that McCain refused to agree (as Obama did) to leave the wives out of it.
[/QUOTE]
This seems like the most bizarre request to me. How could one expect someone who is campaigning for him—his wife—to be left out of the discussion. I think that the more of a backseat the wives take, the more off limits they are. The more they enter the fry, the more they should expect scrutiny and criticism. How can anyone not see perfect logic in that? Regardless of which side is involved.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
I’m of the opinion that you can’t change a thing unless you can first get elected. I agree that he’s going back on the spirit of what he said because he had no idea how much of a money advantage he was going to end up with when he said that, but he would be a fool to be a saint about it, and I don’t the President to be either a fool or a saint.
[/QUOTE]
Wise political move or not, fact is that he had a principled stance and has now abandoned it. The best part is how he’s trying to spin it. It’s Clintonesque. I would have bought a ticket to see it. So your holy Obama is as “practical” as any pol. The only thing he wants to change is whose name comes after “President”.
As far as the 527s go, it should be pointed out that they exist by both sides. As does the PAC money. So even that part of Obama’s weaseling was complete bullshit.
You may now put your blinders back on.
[QUOTE=smiling bandit]
his BS excuse is laughable given that his allies are the big 527’s
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=John Mace]
He said “yes”. Yes means yes. I don’t care how many qualifiers you put after it. If he didn’t mean “yes” he could have not responded.
I’m not making “yes” up.
[/QUOTE]
To add to your point, as I agree with it, the question to ask is "did Obama attempt to leave primary voters with the notion that, if elected, he would be utilizing Public Funding? Of course he did. But I now look forward to further entertainment from his followers here how that’s not necessarily that case. Or some other such nonsense.
Can the McCain followers explain the ethical difference between trying to drop out but failing (as McCain did) and dropping out sucessfully? Is McCain the better man simply because of his impotency?
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Obama said he would pursue an agreement on this and he did. If you want to hang on “yes” not being open to a more nuanced answer then Obama can say he did pursue it and leave it at that.
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At the very least, Obama created the impression that he thought using the Public Funds was the better way for the election to be held. Regardless in what transpired in the meeting between lawyers, McCain has stated he wILL use Public Funding. He’s doing the very thing that Obama was advocating as the better way for elections to be financed. There was nothing stopping him yesterday or today form saying, "well since John McCain has, in fact, agreed to Public Financing, I will to. I meant it months back when I said the system was broken and that Public Financing would be better, and I mean it now. But I guess he doesn’t have a principled stance. It’s just the same old “which one will give me the most money?”. Change? Yeah, right.
But McCain tried to drop out. Why try to drop out if he intended to use the funds?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Regardless in what transpired in the meeting between lawyers, McCain has stated he wILL use Public Funding. He’s doing the very thing that Obama was advocating as the better way for elections to be financed.
[/QUOTE]
Uhm…McCain accepted public financing then tried to back out of it but he had accepted loans which used the public money as collateral so he could not back out of it.
Now in light of Obama’s decision we get…
Given the above your characterizing McCain as doing this on principle, “the better way for elections to be financed,” does not really hold water. He’s doing it more because he is stuck with it and seems to be trying to wriggle out of it. Given that he is (naturally) spinning it to look like he is the good guy.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
You mean, like money from the big pharmaceutical interests? Well, maybe not so much, huh. Or Halliburton and Exxon? Perhaps not. Guys like Richard Mellon Scaife? Don’t seem likely some how.
Crap, it just hit me! The sneaky bastard is getting his money from people!
[Charlton Heston] Obama’s green is people! Obama’s green is people!..[/CH]
[/QUOTE]
I think **SM **was incorrect to reference Obama and 527s, but during the last two election cycles, much more money poured into (and out of) Democratic 527s than Republican ones. Link. Just look at the Red/Blue color coding-- it’s not even close.
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Given the above your characterizing McCain as doing this on principle, “the better way for elections to be financed,” does not really hold water. He’s doing it more because he is stuck with it and seems to be trying to wriggle out of it. Given that he is (naturally) spinning it to look like he is the good guy.
[/QUOTE]
To be fair, assuming you’re interested in that, the only person’s stance I characterized as being “principled” was Obama’s. He’s the one who—to his credit—checked the “yes” box and went on to explain why public funding was the better way to go. I made and make no attempt to portray McCain as an angel in all this. He’s been an agent for change, but he’s still a pol. Now if he had signed the “yes” box and wrote what BO wrotae and then reneged on it, he’s be as worthy of a Medal of Hypocrisy as BO. But the fact is, in this case, that BO gets the limelight all to himself. I’d even understand it if McCain now felt he had to switch, because he would have been pushed into that situation. BO laid out this principled stance and ran away from it as fast as he could as soon as he saw $$. Just great.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
I think **SM **was incorrect to reference Obama and 527s, but during the last two election cycles, much more money poured into (and out of) Democratic 527s than Republican ones. Link. Just look at the Red/Blue color coding-- it’s not even close.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe the libreals have more money but the conservative ones seem a lot more active.
I am hard pressed to recall any 527 (or other groups not strictly 527’s but doing essentially the same thing) attacking McCain in a similar fashion.
Looking back I cannot think of a liberal equivalent to Willie Horton or Swift Boat.
Of liberal and conservative 527’s which do you think have had the greater impact?
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Maybe the libreals have more money but the conservative ones seem a lot more active.
I am hard pressed to recall any 527 (or other groups not strictly 527’s but doing essentially the same thing) attacking McCain in a similar fashion.
Looking back I cannot think of a liberal equivalent to Willie Horton or Swift Boat.
Of liberal and conservative 527’s which do you think have had the greater impact?
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know which have the greater impact, and I’m not sure how you’d even measure that. We were discussing which spent more money-- something more easily quantified.
So in other words, you’re all about smearing the other guy, while quietly admitting your guy is just as dirty. But it isn’t about MY guy, it’s about smear smear smear your guy smear smear terrorist Muslim smear be afraid vote McCain.
Typical 527 politics as usual, even on the boards.
As I see it, Obama wanted to make a deal with McCain about public financing. McCain couldn’t hack it; Obama decided to go his own way. Obama has already changed his party’s fundraising rules. McCain is denouncing Obama’s tactics at the same time he’s imitating them.
Principles: Obama 1, McCain 0.
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole]
Looking back I cannot think of a liberal equivalent to Willie Horton or Swift Boat.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe that’s because Republicans don’t want to let killers who have been sentenced to life out of jail and don’t seek Purple Hearts for a wound when a band-aid will do. Especially when self-inflicted.*
*No, not intentionally self-inflicted, but not caused by the enemy. Much like Max Cleland’s wounds, which tragic as they were, did not qualify him for a Purple Heart.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
I don’t know which have the greater impact, and I’m not sure how you’d even measure that. We were discussing which spent more money-- something more easily quantified.
[/QUOTE]
Well…I do not know that we can say Willie Horton sunk Dukakis’ campaign but undoubtedly it was significant.
Kerry came within a millimeter of beating Bush (had eh won Ohio he would have had the presidency). While we have to take all things into account Swift Boat was certainly a huge anchor weighing him down. Without it might he have prevailed? Who knows but clearly it would not have taken much to turn it.
Additionally is the character of conservative 527 attack ads. Swift Boating has entered the common lexicon as a pejorative term. Again I can think of no liberal attack ads that were such overt smear campaigns.