# Obama's executive amnesty will cost taxpayers $1.3 trillion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445 "2015-03-20T01:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/21 "2015-03-20T14:56:31Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > How can an illegal pay taxes? Working illegally? Some work wholly “under the table” and are paid in cash, of course. However, most illegal immigrants provide their employers with fake Social Security numbers (sometimes with a wink and nod from the employer, sometimes wholly fraudulently), and the employer deducts taxes from their pay and sends it to the IRS under that number. The IRS doesn’t care if somebody pays taxes under a non-existent number (or one assigned to a dead person, or whatever.) From their point of view, it’s revenue that will never flow back out. It’s only really a problem when real live workers have their SSNs spoofed by undocumented workers and wind up in higher tax brackets, or get audited because they appeared to have failed to report half their income on their annual tax return. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/22 "2015-03-20T15:13:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > [Here is the actual report.](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer) > It is plausible sounding to me. Not to me it doesn’t. They are basically adding up ALL assistance the government provides including police and fire coverage and dividing it into the population of illegal immigrants. The thing is illegal immigrants do not avail themselves of many government programs. They are afraid to make themselves known to the government (and for good reason). As a result they will not get things like the Earned Income Tax Credit, public housing, Supplemental Security Income, or Temporary Assistance for Needy Families. Costs which Heritage is lumping in to their analysis. Further, Heritage is not accounting for the economic benefits illegal immigrants bring. They spend most of the money they earn for instance which leads to more economic activity and jobs. Texas, that well known bastion of liberal tree huggers, did a study on this in 2005. Here is their conclusion: > [@](#): > > The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million (Exhibit 18). > > SOURCE: [UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS IN TEXAS: A Financial Analysis of the Impact to the State Budget and Economy](http://www.coloradoimmigrant.org/downloads/TX%20Study%20on%20Undocumented%20Immigrants%20and%20Economy.pdf) (PDF) ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/23 "2015-03-20T15:26:25Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Well, that made it easy to find. > > [Here are the actual claims.](https://www.numbersusa.com/news/report-executive-amnesty-recipients-receive-13-trillion-benefits) So the 13 Trillion is specifically social security and medicare benefits. Benefits that the amnesty recipients would they themselves be paying for. The way that they try to portray it is incredibly disingenuous. It’s like saying ‘allowing Boytyperanma to buy a house will cost Americans 300k.’ Indeed in would, because I am an American, but I’m the one paying for the house, so it’s not costing anyone else anything. He goes on further to demonstrate the remarkable versatility of potential amnesty beneficiarys, every single one of them is going to manage to receive the maximum benefits of means tested programs while being eligible for the earned income tax credit and they’ll all have children giving them the child tax credit. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/24 "2015-03-20T15:34:38Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Most employers automatically deduct taxes from all their employees. This has amounted to [billions of dollars](http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/illegal-immigrants-pay-social-security-tax-wont-benefit/) flowing into social security and medicare. > > While an employee may be present in the country illegally or may not be legally authorized to work, the employer is still obliged to pay them (not paying or not paying at least minimum wage is a federal crime). The work itself isn’t illegal, excluding any criminal syndicates which can only represent a small fraction of the US workforce. > > Employees have to provide a SSN. Employers don’t have to do any elaborate verification the numbers are real or matches anybody. There is E-Verify, but not everybody has to use that. And automatic payroll deduction for taxes are common, if not expected, these days. > > That’s not to mention that when people buy stuff in stores, sales taxes are also automatic, and that’s a large chunk of most states’ budgets. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [From here](http://www.itep.org/immigration/): > > [From here](http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/high-school/top-10-myths-about-immigration): > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Some work wholly “under the table” and are paid in cash, of course. However, most illegal immigrants provide their employers with fake Social Security numbers (sometimes with a wink and nod from the employer, sometimes wholly fraudulently), and the employer deducts taxes from their pay and sends it to the IRS under that number. The IRS doesn’t care if somebody pays taxes under a non-existent number (or one assigned to a dead person, or whatever.) From their point of view, it’s revenue that will never flow back out. > > It’s only really a problem when real live workers have their SSNs spoofed by undocumented workers and wind up in higher tax brackets, or get audited because they appeared to have failed to report half their income on their annual tax return. All these explanations make it sound to me, that making those illegals legal as fast as possible is the best solution for everyone, since deporting every single illegal immigrant seems impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/25 "2015-03-20T15:42:31Z")
Well, not necessarily. Right now they’re propping up our Social Security system since they pay in billions of dollars they can never collect. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/26 "2015-03-20T15:56:44Z")
What a weird concept. We have the opposite problem, people claiming social welfare who are not entitled to it. But illegal immigrants can’t pay taxes, since they are illegal. If it’s illegal, how can you pay and why should you pay taxes. Except for things they buy in a shop, sales tax etc… ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/27 "2015-03-20T15:58:18Z")
Does this analysis include the costs of the current situation? Given that it would be impossible or _extremely_ costly to attempt to gather up and deport all of them, what are the alternatives? From what I can see there are two. [ul] [li]The status quo (do nothing).[/li][li]Some sort of amnesty.[/li][/ul]I assume the status quo has costs, otherwise why all of the complaining about it? Has anyone calculated those costs? Are they more or less than the claimed costs of amnesty? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/28 "2015-03-20T16:03:53Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > But illegal immigrants can’t pay taxes, since they are illegal. If it’s illegal, how can you pay and why should you pay taxes. > Except for things they buy in a shop, sales tax etc… This has been explained. They can and do pay taxes. They certainly pay sales and property taxes. They also pay income taxes. Employers need to abide by federal law so they deduct taxes from worker paychecks and send it to the government. Illegal workers give bogus Social Security numbers but no one checks that they are valid. So money gets sent to the government and these people cannot get the money back via. Basically free money for the government. > [@](#): > > Immigrants pay taxes, in the form of income, property, sales, and taxes at the federal and state level. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes. Undocumented immigrants pay income taxes as well, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration’s “suspense file” (taxes that cannot be matched to workers’ names and social security numbers), which grew by $20 billion between 1990 and 1998. > > SOURCE: [http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/high-school/top-10-myths-about-immigration](http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/high-school/top-10-myths-about-immigration) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/29 "2015-03-20T16:11:40Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > What a weird concept. > We have the opposite problem, people claiming social welfare who are not entitled to it. > > But illegal immigrants can’t pay taxes, since they are illegal. If it’s illegal, how can you pay and why should you pay taxes. > Except for things they buy in a shop, sales tax etc… Well, we have that problem too (though not nearly to the extent certain political factions claim.) [QUOTE=Alley Dweller] They also work under substandard conditions and don’t get such luxuries as workmen’s compensation, health insurance, or overtime pay. [/QUOTE] As a general rule, undocumented workers are legally eligible for workers’ compensation benefits. A greater proportion (than legal residents) work for employers which have no workers’ compensation coverage, but certainly not the majority. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/30 "2015-03-20T16:30:47Z")
According to the NumbersUSA report, they believe that “3.97 illegal immigrants would apply for and receive legal…” Why, that’s $327 Billion per immigrant! (And how does .97 immigrant do anything?). Most Americans have no idea what a trillion is, they just know it is a very scary number, especially when they think they are being asked to pay that amount. The Republicans have had very good success with their terrorism since 2001; this is more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/31 "2015-03-20T16:33:16Z")
Reported. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/32 "2015-03-20T16:34:52Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > How can an illegal pay taxes? Working illegally? Sales taxes, taxes on utilities, gas taxes, phone taxes… there are lots of taxes that aren’t income taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/33 "2015-03-20T16:58:13Z")
The report itself, while arguing against the policy, acknowledges that illegal immigrants often pay taxes out of their paychecks. “Most analysts assume that roughly half of unlawful immigrants work “off the books” and therefore do not pay income or FICA taxes.” What is interesting about the report is that it seems to conclude that the aliens who would benefit from this policy change may be less of a financial burden than many Americans: “Other households are net tax consumers: The benefits they receive exceed the taxes they pay… For example, in 2010, in the U.S. population as a whole, households headed by persons without a high school degree, on average, received $46,582 in government benefits while paying only $11,469 in taxes. This generated an average fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of $35,113.” "At the current time (before amnesty), the average unlawful immigrant household has a net deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of $14,387 per household. . . . “At the end of the interim period, unlawful immigrants would become eligible for means-tested welfare and medical subsidies under Obamacare. Average benefits would rise to $43,900 per household; tax payments would remain around $16,000; the average fiscal deficit (benefits minus taxes) would be about $28,000 per household.” I think the author is implying we need to deport Americans without a high school degree. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/34 "2015-03-20T17:06:50Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > But illegal immigrants can’t pay taxes, since they are illegal. If it’s illegal, how can you pay and why should you pay taxes. As has been noted already, a large percentage of illegals are working by pretending to be legal (with or without their employer’s wink and nod). That means they are paying exactly the same taxes as everybody else. Moreover, the IRS will be happy to give pretty much anybody who asks an [Individual Taxpayer Identification Number](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/General-ITIN-Information), and they’ve passed out millions of them. The ITIN is specifically a tax processing number; it can be used by anybody who is required to pay taxes or wants to claim refunds, regardless of immigration status. Certainly some are issued to non-citizen dependents of citizens or resident aliens, but most observers figure the vast majority are assigned to illegals. Those two methods (an ITIN or using somebody else’s SSN) are how an illegal can pay federal/state income taxes. As to why, the most obvious is “passing”–you don’t want people to know you are illegal, so you do the things that people who are not illegal have to do, which includes paying taxes. If you have fooled your employer into thinking you are not illegal, telling the HR dept “oh, you don’t need to withhold taxes for me” is kind of a red flag. If your employer knows full well you are illegal, but still wants to be seen as operating a legitimate business, they’ll withhold taxes to avoid raising red flags with THEIR accountants, bankers, tax preparers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/35 "2015-03-20T17:21:30Z")
Immigration is a major source of debate here in the UK. It is now illegal to employ anyone who does not have documentation to prove that they are here legally. UK born citizens have to take their passports or other supporting doc’s to any new employer before they can be taken on. Of course this does not mean that there aren’t any illegals working. From that nice Iraqi guy who does your garden at a very low rate for cash, to the sex workers and the semi slaves in sweat shop factories, they find ways to earn a crust. As far as taxes are concerned, they probably contribute very little. Mostly sales taxes (VAT and alcohol and fuel duty). They do, however give birth in NHS hospitals and send their children to school (not that I begrudge that). Of course, since the EU has a policy of free exchange of labour, most immigrants are not illegal but are happy to work for low wages that are better than they could get back home in Albania or Latvia. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/36 "2015-03-20T17:47:00Z")
It seems to me that if > [@Ravenman](#): > > The report itself …“Most analysts assume that roughly half of unlawful immigrants work “off the books” and therefore do not pay income or FICA taxes.” then not this (bolding added) > [@Ravenman](#): > > “At the end of the interim period, unlawful immigrants would become eligible for means-tested welfare and medical subsidies under Obamacare. Average benefits would rise to $43,900 per household; **tax payments would remain around $16,000** ; the average fiscal deficit (benefits minus taxes) would be about $28,000 per household.” Note these are not Ravenman’s claims. He’s merely providing the quote. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/37 "2015-03-20T18:08:01Z")
I don’t understand your comments between the posts. The report says that currently about half of undocumented workers pay taxes. Once they receive the ability to work legally, they will earn higher wages and tax compliance will go up by a lot. If they continue on the path to citizenship or permanent residency, tax compliance won’t go up all that much, because most of them will have already started – or continued - paying taxes. It’s all in the report. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/38 "2015-03-20T18:09:15Z")
How is $45k in government benefits for anyone anywhere close to being a believable number? The most entitlement-using people I know might get a few hundred a month in welfare or disability and food stamps. Are they counting things like the use of public roads and police salaries? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/39 "2015-03-20T18:16:32Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Are they counting things like the use of public roads and police salaries? **puddleglum** provided a link to the report (which I haven’t had time to read): > [@](#): > > **Population-based services.** Police, fire, highways, parks, and similar services, as the National Academy of Sciences determined in its study of the fiscal costs of immigration, generally have to expand as new immigrants enter a community; someone has to bear the cost of that expansion. It seems to me that they’re saying illegal immigrants do not increase the burden of police, fire, highways, parks, and similar services. But if they are allowed to become legal, then they become a burden on those services. I think the reasoning is that since they are here illegally, they don’t exist; thus the services don’t need to be expanded. If they become legal, then they do exist and the services must be expanded. . ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445/40 "2015-03-20T18:41:57Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > How is $45k in government benefits for anyone anywhere close to being a believable number? The most entitlement-using people I know might get a few hundred a month in welfare or disability and food stamps. Are they counting things like the use of public roads and police salaries? $45K per household. So presumably that includes things like schools. Nationwide, average annual spending per elementary pupil is around $10K. So three kids = $30K in education alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-executive-amnesty-will-cost-taxpayers-1-3-trillion/715445.md?page=3)