Mmmph. Although, as I noted, I think Sam’s “utter failure” talk was a somewhat disingenuous exaggeration, I don’t think he really meant it to be interpreted absolutely literally.
Person A: I’m not asking for perfection. I’m asking for any successes.
Person B: Stop asking for perfection.
Not to defend Obama, but it’s likely that much of the greater levels of hostility from Iran, North Korea, etc. are due to the modern nations being too busy dealing with the global economic crisis to focus properly.
You also point out that Obama is still beating on stimulus packages and clean air while Europe and Canada are focussed more of fiscal cutbacks and things more relevant to the economic state of things as if that proves anything. All that shows is that when things went bad, there was a conservative in power in the US so the incumbent was thrown out and a liberal was voted in. Through Europe and (I presume) Canada, liberals were principally in power and when things went bad they were kicked out, as the incumbents, and replaced with conservatives. You would expect the liberal to go with liberal things and conservatives to go with conservative things. But that the conservatives outnumber the liberals is only evidence that the rest of the world tends to be more liberal and hence had them in power up until the crisis, not that the general public actually chose wisely this time around nor that the conservatives have a better idea of how to go about things. They might, but, I’d like to see some figures that things have been recovering better in Europe and and Canada faster than in the US before I bought that.
Just to dogpile the list of things that will never be responded to:
This is beyond the control of anything Obama did or could have done. Bush’s policy towards NK failed to prevent them from twice testing a nuclear bomb. Very few actually blame Bush for this since we have little leverage over this hermit state.
Something they routinely do these days whenever the US announces a news arms deal with Taiwan. Since Obama is required by law to sell arms to Taiwan, and China isn’t going to cease claiming sovereignty over Taiwan anytime soon, to claim that this is specifically a failure of Obama’s foreign policy either betrays a profound lack of facts or a profound ideological bias against such facts and their context.
Turkey is hardly turning radical. So long as the Palestinian situation has remained unresolved and Erdogen’s party remains the majority, it was somewhat inevitable that Turkey’s alliance with Israel would be questioned and challenged. Despite their chilly relations these days and the suspension of joint military exercises, however, diplomatic relations are intact and neither side has renounced any alliance.
Obama’s offer of talks with Iran was a failure, but this development is just a chain in a series of developments going back to 2005. The latest UN Security Council sanctions against Iran will likely be approved sometime this week. The level of rhetoric coming from Iran has remained pretty consistent, particularly since it has consistently escalated whenever a Security Council vote on sanctions neared.
The Bush administration’s policy towards Israel was generally to support it no matter what. Not much of a policy, particularly if there is a specific direction that should be taken. Aside from financial/military aid, the US also doesn’t have much leverage over Israel and has even less leverage over Hamas. Every successive peace plan attempted by every administration has been failure - Clinton’s, Bush’s, and it is probable that any plan proffered by Obama would fail as well.
Which countries? If you are solely using Ukraine’s election to make this determination, even that is incorrect since Ukraine’s decision to renew the Russian lease on the naval base in the Crimea was in exchange for a reduction in the natural gas charges that Russia exports, not any ideological favor. Ukraine is still keen on joining the EU, though now that Yushchenko has been voted out of office, their desire to join NATO has cooled considerably. Ukrainian-Russian relations are much better than the pit they were in under the Yuschenko administration, but they are not forsaking the West to become closer to Russia as you are implying.
The war in Afghanistan is going about the same as it was under Bush, though to not take into account some notable successes such as the capture of Taliban #2 Baradar, the re-taking of Marja, the death of Al-Qaeda liaison to the Taliban al-Yazid, and the coming offensive in Kandahar is telling. Short of abandoning or outright overthrowing Karzai, there isn’t much the US can do to make him more reasonable or more democratic. The bigger problem is not Karzai himself, but the Afghan people’s general distrust of the central government, of which the problem of Karzai is just one element thereof.
How have these relationships deteriorated? What metric and on what exchange has the US lost stock with them?
Sam Stone, can you think of any ways the U.S.'s global position has changed from 2001 to 2009? Say, including its economic strength, military commitments, and international standing?
A good idea that was undercut by its anti-abortion and anti-contraception slant.
This effort in building ties was so successful that anti-Bush figures like Morales, Lula, and Chaves later came to power in Latin America. And the ties in Eastern Europe were so solid that a mere 16 months of Obama’s presidency has caused “many countries to move into the Russian sphere of influence.”
By the 18-month mark he hadn’t publicly turned his attention to Iraq. After that point, Afghanistan was neglected, Karzai’s government grew more and more corrupt, and the Taliban got stronger.
Oh, come on. You know this thread wasn’t started in the hopes of finding any Obama successes. Sam Stone made up his mind long ago that Obama’s going to screw up.
Some examples:
The Obama Administration Dismal Human Rights Policies
Get Ready to Pay More for Your Tires
Most Transparent Administration EVER!
Obama’s Deficits have Consequences
Obama’s Creepy ‘Call to Service’
That’s just a sampling, from the first two pages of **Sam’s **threads. As I said, Sam Stone doesn’t want to hear about Obama’s successes- he’s only interested in failure, or trumping up evidence of said failure. How often does he have to start up these threads to tell us we screwed up, anyway?
(To be fair, I did find *one *example of **Sam **acknowledging a good thing on Obama’s part- that of his stance towards marijuana. That was the only one, though, that I could find.)
GD is for the people reading, not the debaters. If Obama has done well, demonstrate that Obama has done well. Whether Sam Stone buys it or not isn’t important, just whether or not your average, reasonable person would.
But definitely going into an ad hominem attack on Sam doesn’t make it look like you believe yourself to have the ammo.
Why should we want Eastern Europe to trust us to protect them from Russia?
Your cite is a Krauthammer op-ed that doesn’t address the specific issue of blockade-running with humanitarian aid, and concludes with opinionated, inflammatory language. Not the best cite I’ve ever seen.
Well, Sam did spend multiple threads waxing orgasmic about how Dubya was going to get us to Mars. And he didn’t forget Poland. Good old Sam.
He’s obviously unbiased.
I can only imagine the shit all the righty dead-enders are going to start dragging out in September and October.
-Joe
I just love how some of you have to always make the argument personal. In spite of the rules. You just can’t help yourselves.
Do you think Obama has failed in Iraq? How about the Okinawa case I have mentioned?
North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens… States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic.
President George W Bush
January 29, 2002
We learned a lesson: The dangers of our time must be confronted actively and forcefully, before we see them again in our skies and in our cities. And we set a goal: we will not allow the triumph of hatred and violence in the affairs of men. (Applause.)
President George W Bush
February 26, 2003
Washington – The United States and Japan will maintain a united position toward North Korea and will cooperate on missile defense, as well as continuing to dissuade Pyongyang from launching a long-range ballistic missile, President Bush told reporters at the White House June 29.
“We both agreed that it’s very important for us to remain united in sending a clear message to the North Korean leader that, first of all, launching the missile is unacceptable. There’s been no briefings as to what’s on top of the missile. They haven’t told anybody where the missile’s going,” Bush said.
Reuters
29 June 2006
North Korea test-fired a seventh missile Wednesday – amid international furor over the regime’s launch of six missiles just hours earlier.The Japanese Defense Agency said one ballistic missile was fired from southeastern North Korea around 5:20 p.m. (4:20 a.m. ET), landing in the Sea of Japan about 10 minutes later.
The range of the missile has not been confirmed by CNN. However, Japanese news agencies said it was medium-range.
The seventh test came after North Korea launched one long-range and five shorter-range missiles shortly after 3:30 a.m. Wednesday (2:30 p.m. Tuesday ET). Those tests lasted about five hours.
CNN
4thJuly, 2006
On the threat from North Korea’s nuclear program, the Prime Minister and I see the problem exactly the same way. We will not tolerate nuclear weapons in North Korea. We will not give into blackmail.
President George W Bush
May 23, 2003
WASHINGTON (AP) – President Bush on Monday denounced a reported potential North Korean nuclear test as provocative, “unacceptable” and a threat to global peace and security.
Associated Press
September 12th, 2006
UNITED NATIONS - The world’s nations expressed opposition to North Korea on Monday for staging a nuclear test denounced even by key allies. President Bush called it “a threat to international peace and security,” and called for the U.N. Security Council weighed severe sanctions to punish the impoverished but reclusive communist nation.
Bush said the action deserves “an immediate response by the United Nations Security Council.”
Oct. 9, 2006
Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation’s security, and the calling of our time.
So it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.
We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation: The moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right. America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies.
All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you.
Democratic reformers facing repression, prison, or exile can know: America sees you for who you are: the future leaders of your free country.
President George W Bush
Second inaugural speech
January 20th, 2005
We should all look to a future when every government respects the will of its citizens – because the ideal of democracy is universal. For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region here in the Middle East – and we achieved neither. Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.
Condoleezza Rice
Remarks at the American University in Cairo
June 22, 2005
On behalf of the United States, I congratulate my friend, King Abdallah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud, on assuming the Saudi throne and the position of Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques. We wish Saudi Arabia peace and prosperity under his leadership.
George W. Bush
Message to King Abdallah
August 1, 2005
A general court in Riyadh sentenced 'Ali al-Dumaini, Dr. Matruk al-Falih and Dr. Abdullah al-Hamid on May 15, 2005, to prison terms of between six and nine years after they attempted to circulate a petition calling for a constitutional monarchy in Saudi Arabia.
Human Rights Watch
Saudi Arabia: Court Confirms Jail for Reformers
July 27, 2005
Sticking to tradition, Abdullah immediately appointed his half brother, Defense Minister Prince Sultan, 77, as his crown prince and successor . . . Sultan is likely to appease the religious establishment, which gives the monarchy its legitimacy, rather than continue to reform its institutions.
Associated Press
Saudi King Fahd dies setting off
jockeying for power in key U.S. ally
August 1, 2005
“Saudi judges seem unable or unwilling to protect Saudi citizens from arbitrary detention when they try to exercise basic rights like free speech,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director for Human Rights Watch. “Instead, they have backed the government’s relentless repression of all peaceful political criticism.”
Human Rights Watch
Saudi Arabia: Court Confirms Jail for Reformers
July 27, 2005
Oil prices climbed above $61 a barrel to a three-week high on Monday . . . analysts said markets were jittery over longer term Saudi policy, noting that the new king and Crown Prince were both octogenarians.
“It’s this succession struggle and the possible related instability that’s the actual concern,” one trader said.
Reuters
Oil surges as Saudi king dies
August 1, 2005
“The government is relying on vaguely defined offenses that it can apply arbitrarily to silence citizens critical of the government. The Saudi Foreign Minister publicly stated his view that Saudi Arabia would become a constitutional monarchy, but three months later the government jailed these ordinary citizens for advocating exactly this.”
Human Rights Watch
Saudi Arabia: Court Confirms Jail for Reformers
July 27, 2005
I have spoken today to the new King, and the United States looks forward to continuing the close partnership between our two countries.
President Georges W Bush
Message to King Abdallah
August 1, 2005
http://fosterfriess.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/bushsaudihands1.jpg
MANAUS, Brazil (AP) – U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is criticizing Venezuela’s reported efforts to purchase 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles from Russia, suggesting that Venezuela’s possession of so many weapons would threaten the hemisphere. Officials fear Chavez’s actions could lead to a new arms race.
Venezuela’s democratically elected president, Hugo Chavez, has warned that he will cut off shipments of his country’s oil to the United States if the Bush administration supports an attempt to force him from office.
Pakistan’s Order Lifts Lockheed F-16 Plant
By Charles R. Babcock and Renae Merle
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 26, 2005; Page D12
The Bush administration’s decision to sell F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan is likely to be as warmly greeted in Fort Worth as it is in Karachi.
That’s because Lockheed Martin Corp. has said it needs new orders for the jet before this fall, or it will have to take action to close the production line there that employs about 5,000 workers.
The imminent sale to Pakistan may cause the Indian government to consider the American plane.
Ever since the partition of the subcontinent in 1947, India and Pakistan have been bitter rivals. During five decades they have fought three wars, two of them over the disputed region of Kashmir, which is divided by the “Line of Control.”
But recently tensions have abated, and the leaders of India and Pakistan have embarked on a series of measures to resolve a spate of security issues, including the hotly disputed Kashmir.
The neighbors have already enforced a total cease-fire between forces lined up on each side of the border and have resumed air, rail and bus links. All eyes will be watching if a series of talks between the leaders of these two South Asian nations can put an end to their decades-old animosity.
Kashmir, BBC special report, 2004.
Rice delayed F-16 announcement
WASHINGTON, March 26 (UPI) – U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has said she decided not to announce the F-16 sale to Pakistan during her recent trip to South Asia.
To soften an expected strong reaction to the proposed sale, Washington said it wants to see India as a major world power and is willing to sell sophisticated weapons to New Delhi as well.
India, however, insists that by selling F-16s to Pakistan, the United States was starting an arms race in the Subcontinent. Washington has rejected the charge.
Q. What message does that send when you’re giving F-16s to a military regime that ousted a democratic government at a time you’re trying to promote democracy?
SECRETARY RICE: Robin, Pakistan is worlds away from where it was three and a half years ago. One has to look not at fixed points in time, you know, international politics is not like a satellite that comes over and takes a snapshot, takes a snapshot, it’s a process.
Condoleezza “Two Times” Rice, remarks to reporters.
Get back to me when he loses two wars, spends a $USD trillion doing it, and kills several hundred thousand people on the way.
Well Sam, as I suggested above, maybe you should try making your arguments a little less hyperbolic and inflammatory. Of course, nobody should actually be directing personal insults at you, no matter what your OP sounds like. However, when you start a thread from a deliberately extreme anti-Obama position, it shouldn’t surprise you that you come across as being motivated by anti-Obama sentiments rather than by a desire for fair debate.
Try starting a thread with a title something like “Has Obama’s foreign policy so far lived up to his claims for it?” rather than “Obama’s foreign policy is an utter failure”, to show that you’re more interested in hearing both sides of the issue than in blatant soapboxing for one side.
For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region here in the Middle East– and we achieved neither. Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.
Condy Two Times
Cairo, Egypt
June 2005
**
Egyptian opposition activists and police have clashed during the final round of parliamentary elections. ** One opposition supporter was shot dead and another wounded north of Cairo as police opened fire on voters.
Riot police blocked entry to polling stations in some Muslim Brotherhood and opposition strongholds.
The elections are being seen as a potential watershed for Egypt after the technically-banned Brotherhood made stunning gains in previous rounds.
“We have witnessed in [some constituencies] the sealing off polling stations to voters by police… Judges monitoring the stations have been prevented from opening them to let in voters,” Mr Houderi told the BBC.
The US had called on Egypt to ensure that people can vote freely and Amnesty International also expressed concern about the violence, intimidation and mass arrests in previous.
BBC Arab Affairs analyst Magdi Abdelhadi says despite the violence and the widespread allegations of fraud, this election may still prove to be the event that radically alters the Egyptian political landscape.
The Muslim Brotherhood’s unprecedented success has altered the balance of power between the government and the opposition.
BBC
1 December 2005
In the days before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice met with officials in Egypt, the news media here were filled with stories detailing charges of corruption, cronyism, torture and political repression. …
Ms. Rice, who once lectured Egyptians on the need to respect the rule of law, did not address those domestic concerns. Instead, with Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit by her side, she talked about her appreciation for Egypt’s support in the region.
It was clear that the United States — facing chaos in Iraq, rising Iranian influence and the destabilizing Israeli-Palestinian conflict — had decided that stability, not democracy, was its priority, Egyptian political commentators, political aides and human rights advocates said.
NYT
January 28th 2006[URL=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/world/middleeast/16egypt.html”]
To try and quiet some of the furore that exploded after the proposed sale of American ports to Dubai Ports World the White House is quietly pushing the Dubai company to “significantly restructure” and partner up with a U.S. outfit to keep the port deal from sinking, sources told the Daily News yesterday.
One snag to such a deal may be that sources say the U.S. company best equipped to partner with DP World is Halliburton, once headed by Vice President Cheney.
New York Daily News
March 4, 2006
YOSSARIAN : You made a deal to bomb our own base?
MILO MINDERBINDER : A contract is a contract. That’s what we’re fighting for. Will you clear the field, please? We will soon begin to strafe.
YOSSARIAN : Strafe ?
MILO MINDERBINDER : It’s all in the contract. Our syndicate had to get rid of that cotton. The Germans
promised to take it off our hands if we ran this mission for them. ( * excitedly * ) There goes Headquarters!
[ … ]
MILO MINDERBINDER : I’m sorry we dropped a bomb on him Yossarian but it was an unavoidable accident. Nately was the victim of certain economic pressures, the laws of supply and demand.
YOSSARIAN : You unbelievable b*stard!
MILO MINDERBINDER : Nately died a wealthy man, Yossarian. He had over sixty shares in our syndicate.
YOSSARIAN : What difference does that make? He’s dead.
MILO MINDERBINDER : Then his family will get it.
YOSSARIAN : He didn’t have time to have a family.
MILO MINDERBINDER : Then his parents will get it.
YOSSARIAN : They don’t need it, they’re rich.
MILO MINDERBINDER : Then they’ll understand.
CATCH 22
Screenplay
1970
President Bush praised Azerbaijan’s president Friday despite human rights problems documented by the State Department, and said the country had a “very important role to play” in meeting global energy needs.
Bush met in the Oval Office with President Ilham Aliyev, who succeeded his father 2 1/2 years ago after elections the State Department said suffered from “numerous, serious irregularities.”
With Aliyev sitting in an armchair next to him, Bush held out Azerbaijan as “a modern Muslim country that is able to provide for its citizens, that understands that democracy is the wave of the future.”
L.A. Times
Bush praises Muslim ally
April 29, 2006
Torture remains a widespread and largely overlooked problem in Azerbaijan. A glaring case recently documented by Human Rights Watch involves the torture in custody of three teenage boys detained on murder charges. In March 2005, police officials and officials from the local prosecutor’s office subjected all three boys to severe beatings and other serious abuse amounting to torture, including suffocation, denial of food, water and sleep, threats of additional and more severe violence, threats of rape, and threats against the boys’ family members. The boys are currently awaiting trial and remain detained in extremely poor conditions that violate international standards.
Human Rights Watch
April 25, 2006
The meeting reflected the difficulty the administration faces as it seeks to maintain U.S. access to oil and gas supplies from countries that may be unstable or unreliable, often because of corruption or human rights abuses…
Aliyev, speaking English, said his three-day U.S. visit would be important in developing Azerbaijan as "a modern, secular, democratic country. He said his nation shared “the same values” as the United States.
Bush expressed his appreciation to Aliyev several times, thanking him for support in the war in Iraq and for his help in achieving “what we all want, which is energy security.”
L.A. Times
Bush praises Muslim ally
April 29, 2006