# Obama's Harvard transcript - an issue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752 "2010-08-01T00:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/101 "2010-08-05T00:37:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > > > Just because they aren’t commonly released doesn’t mean that they don’t get into the public domain. The cite I presented showed that they have, regularly, since, 1999. The fact that the media hasn’t dug up Obama’s yet means… well, you can draw your own conclusions on that one. > > Fox News really is incompetent? > The Washington Times could not find a genuine fact if they were given two years and an unlimited Moonie budget? > World Net Daily is not a genuine news service? > Drudge only finds stuff when it is handed to him on a platter? > > I am not sure that your implications of bias actually suggest the conclusions you hope to see. Good Lord, you people won’t let this drop… The WaPo dug up the other records, as per my earlier cite. They haven’t looked for Obama’s (or maybe haven’t been succesful; who’s to know?). As I said, you draw your own conclusions. I haven’t stated mine, in this or any other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/102 "2010-08-05T00:44:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > > > And I am acknowledging it, the give-an-inch-they’ll-take-a-mile syndrome. I get that. > > You don’t get it because that’s not what I am saying. I am saying that if he released the records or leaked them, they would not find them satisfactory. This is exactly what happened with the birth certificate. They demanded the birth certificate, he released it, and they came up with a bunch of bullshit reasons why it wasn’t really what they wanted and kept saying he was a fraud, and why oh why wouldn’t he just released the _real_ document - wasn’t it so _suspicious_ that he wasn’t responding to a such simple request? > > This is the same thing. If he releases his grades, they’ll say there is something wrong. The seal looks fake, or the grades look inflated, or some other issue. These people are essentially immune to reason because their issue with him is not a rational one based on policy, it’s one based on a fundamental problem with who he is. (I say that as I argue with a few of them in another thread. Call it an anti-intellectual exercise.) There’s no point in releasing them because they will not make the whackos go away. They have already proved that facts will not deter them. > > And when you say “every candidate since '99”… that means Bush, Gore, and Kerry. _Three people._ That’s not really enough to justify the word “every.” Particularly since few if any candidates released their grades before that, and given the irrelevance of this issue in the real world. So your argument is, the big bad meanies will make fun of me and/or complain that they aren’t genuine? Give me a break… Or to put it another way, a way that maybe you don’t see… what’s the general opinion in non-crazy America about the birth cert? The folks on this board regularly ridicule the birthers. I’d suggest that most people think he’s US. (Wait, let me [prove](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/04/cnn-poll-quarter-doubt-president-was-born-in-u-s/) it.) If a similar reaction were to happen with the grades, you don’t think that would _help_ him with the opinion of the indies, where elections get decided? Really? Just like the cheap trick w/W’s drunk driving thing (see \*\*Bricker’s \*\*thread) probably helped W as a sympathy play? A rational person sees that there’d be a backlash big-time against those theories (obviously not among the true believers on the right, but how many of them are lining up to vote Dem in Nov anyway). I’d suggest finding a better downside if you want to have credibility in this discussion. Or just drop it, which. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/103 "2010-08-05T00:46:53Z")
> [@Cagey\_Drifter](#): > > Let me just chime in here and ask something that should be the most obvious thing to ask: > > What kind of thing could he possibly be hiding by not releasing his Harvard transcript? Someone name the worst case scenario, please. I think you’re overthinking it. The avg American sheeple doesn’t think that way. They are more concerned with Dancing with the Stars, et al. They think (or at least, there’s a _risk_ that\* some might\* think) that a) the others were revealed, b) Obama won’t reveal them, so c) wtf? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/104 "2010-08-05T00:51:08Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > The WaPo dug up the other records, as per my earlier cite. They haven’t looked for Obama’s (or maybe haven’t been succesful; who’s to know?). Since records have been released or discovered for “every candidate since '99!” it’s safe to assume the Post has not been able to find his. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > So your argument is, the big bad meanies will make fun of me and/or complain that they aren’t genuine? Give me a break… That wasn’t my argument. It’s not anything close to it. Fortunately at this point you’ve convinced me you’re not interested in an actual discussion. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/105 "2010-08-05T03:28:49Z")
Any business will come up with your college grades ,when you apply for a job. There are online services that will dig up extremely personal facts about you for 50 bucks. Somehow Obama’s birth certificate and college transcripts got burned up in the 911 fires. Go figure. Nobody had trouble getting Bush’s service records did they? Oh wait, they did. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/106 "2010-08-05T03:49:24Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > As I said, you draw your own conclusions. I haven’t stated mine, in this or any other thread. :rolleyes: Given that Mr. Obama is known to have placed high in his class and served as the head of an influential publication, it would not normally serve any point to go digging up his transcripts. Unlike Mr. Bush, who appeared to have deliberately dumbed down his public persona in order to curry the favor of a certain bloc of voters, Mr. Obama has done nothing to suggest that he was a poor scholar. No one bothered to dig up Mr. McCain’s transcripts, either, because he did not make an issue of his education. Once Bush made intelligence (or an apparent lack of it) an issue, then there was a lot of scrambling to find out his particulars as well as the particulars of his opponents. Similarly, I do not recall anyone chasing down the transcripts of Messrs. Bush (I), Dole, or Clinton. The Bush (II) period was an anomaly based on a particular campaign tactic that he employed. It is a silly game that a few cranks are playing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/107 "2010-08-05T13:39:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I am saying that if he released the records or leaked them, they would not find them satisfactory. This is exactly what happened with the birth certificate. They demanded the birth certificate, he released it, and they came up with a bunch of bullshit reasons why it wasn’t really what they wanted and kept saying he was a fraud, and why oh why wouldn’t he just released the _real_ document - wasn’t it so _suspicious_ that he wasn’t responding to a such simple request? And then we have > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Mr Smashy > So your argument is, the big bad meanies will make fun of me **and/or complain that they aren’t genuine**? Give me a break… And you come up with this gem > [@Marley23](#): > > That wasn’t my argument. It’s not anything close to it. Fortunately at this point you’ve convinced me you’re not interested in an actual discussion. Your ability for nuance clearly outpaces my ability for understanding. Please explain what you meant, if you are able to in my primitive dialect :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/108 "2010-08-05T13:45:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > > > As I said, you draw your own conclusions. I haven’t stated mine, in this or any other thread. > > :rolleyes: > > Given that Mr. Obama is known to have placed high in his class and served as the head of an influential publication, it would not normally serve any point to go digging up his transcripts. Unlike Mr. Bush, who appeared to have deliberately dumbed down his public persona in order to curry the favor of a certain bloc of voters, Mr. Obama has done nothing to suggest that he was a poor scholar. > > No one bothered to dig up Mr. McCain’s transcripts, either, because he did not make an issue of his education. Once Bush made intelligence (or an apparent lack of it) an issue, then there was a lot of scrambling to find out his particulars as well as the particulars of his opponents. Similarly, I do not recall anyone chasing down the transcripts of Messrs. Bush (I), Dole, or Clinton. The Bush (II) period was an anomaly based on a particular campaign tactic that he employed. > > It is a silly game that a few cranks are playing. This is something I actually never thought of before - that W wasn’t stupid, per se, he just played one on TV, so people would relate more, want to drink a beer with him, etc. I’m glad that we have such omniscient mods here that they know, with an absolute certainty, that the risk is absolutely zero that this issue won’t hurt the Dems in Nov, and therefore aren’t willing to take the trivial steps to take it off the table. No risk whatsoever. You’d bet your life on it. You’d bet the lives of your kids on it. Gotcha. Edit to add, I wasn’t being sarcastic w/the comment about W, I honestly never thought about that before. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/109 "2010-08-05T14:50:40Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Your ability for nuance clearly outpaces my ability for understanding. Please explain what you meant, if you are able to in my primitive dialect :rolleyes: I think at this point I’ve done enough explaining. I said nothing about “the meanies.” I said the people who are complaining would not be persuaded and would only dodge. And nobody else gives a flying fuck about the issue. If you’re lost, try Hare Krishna. > [@Marley23](#): > > And the problem is that everybody has already heard this song before. This is exactly the same as the birth certificate issue. There was no debate about his birth certificate _until he himself made it public_. Does that give you any insight into this issue? There was a rumor that his middle name was Muhammad, so he put his birth certificate online to dispell it. The next thing you know, there’s a whole swarm of people who have suddenly become experts on Hawaiian birth certificates, and until the men in white coats with the butterfly nets show up, they will argue that he was not really born in Hawaii. They argue that despite the two birth announcements that ran in local newspapers right after he was born, the fact that his mother was a citizen, and in spite of the birth certificate he put online himself, that the document proves the exact opposite of what it means and the exact opposite of the reason he made it public. Then the media started covering the issue, which made it self-sustaining and it did not go away no matter how thoroughly it was established that his birth certificate was real. > > So this has to be asked: who do you think is going to change their opinions about him based on releasing his grades from Harvard? > [@Marley23](#): > > And even if he released the records, there would be some other issue. > [@Marley23](#): > > I am saying that if he released the records or leaked them, they would not find them satisfactory. This is exactly what happened with the birth certificate. They demanded the birth certificate, he released it, and they came up with a bunch of bullshit reasons why it wasn’t really what they wanted and kept saying he was a fraud, and why oh why wouldn’t he just released the _real_ document - wasn’t it so _suspicious_ that he wasn’t responding to a such simple request? > > This is the same thing. If he releases his grades, they’ll say there is something wrong. The seal looks fake, or the grades look inflated, or some other issue. These people are essentially immune to reason because their issue with him is not a rational one based on policy, it’s one based on a fundamental problem with who he is. (I say that as I argue with a few of them in another thread. Call it an anti-intellectual exercise.) There’s no point in releasing them because they will not make the whackos go away. They have already proved that facts will not deter them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/110 "2010-08-05T15:11:16Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > This is something I actually never thought of before - that W wasn’t stupid, per se, he just played one on TV, so people would relate more, want to drink a beer with him, etc. > > … > > Edit to add, I wasn’t being sarcastic w/the comment about W, I honestly never thought about that before. Truth be told, I figure the whole “Bush is dumb!” thing got tedious and overused well before his administration ended. I didn’t figure he was personally dumb (though he’s not as smooth a public speaker and thus unfavourably and unfairly compared to Clinton and Obama in this regard), but I could buy that he’s an incurious and lazy thinker, which made it relatively easy for his various handlers with their various agendas to isolate him for their own ends. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/111 "2010-08-05T22:25:52Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > > [@tomndebb](#): > > > > :rolleyes: > > > > Given that Mr. Obama is known to have placed high in his class and served as the head of an influential publication, it would not normally serve any point to go digging up his transcripts. Unlike Mr. Bush, who appeared to have deliberately dumbed down his public persona in order to curry the favor of a certain bloc of voters, Mr. Obama has done nothing to suggest that he was a poor scholar. > > > > No one bothered to dig up Mr. McCain’s transcripts, either, because he did not make an issue of his education. Once Bush made intelligence (or an apparent lack of it) an issue, then there was a lot of scrambling to find out his particulars as well as the particulars of his opponents. Similarly, I do not recall anyone chasing down the transcripts of Messrs. Bush (I), Dole, or Clinton. The Bush (II) period was an anomaly based on a particular campaign tactic that he employed. > > > > It is a silly game that a few cranks are playing. > > This is something I actually never thought of before - that W wasn’t stupid, per se, he just played one on TV, so people would relate more, want to drink a beer with him, etc. > > I’m glad that we have such omniscient mods here that they know, with an absolute certainty, that the risk is absolutely zero that this issue won’t hurt the Dems in Nov, and therefore aren’t willing to take the trivial steps to take it off the table. > > No risk whatsoever. You’d bet your life on it. You’d bet the lives of your kids on it. Gotcha. > > Edit to add, I wasn’t being sarcastic w/the comment about W, I honestly never thought about that before. The only people that this stupid story will get traction with are anti Obama conspiracy dreamers. I am sure people who are dumb enough to buy the birther arguments will fall behind this farce too. But they would not support Obama anyway, so there is no danger of it hurting his chances. These people are talking to themselves. People who need evidence will ignore this idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/112 "2010-08-06T01:52:04Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > This is something I actually never thought of before - that W wasn’t stupid, per se, he just played one on TV, so people would relate more, want to drink a beer with him, etc. I have never understood how people thought that someone who was actually stupid could successfully graduate from Yale, (at whatever class position), and then make it through flight training in the Air Force. It doesn’t make sense. There are videos of GWB in debates for his first run at the Texas governorship in which he is articulate and decisive. His later debates and press conferences had to have been a choice of style, (unless he is suffering a seriously debilitating illness of the mind). I have always thought that he was intellectually lazy, choosing to go with his gut instead of actually taking the time to become informed of a situation before making a decision, but he could not have actually made it to the positions he did, (even with the help of Poppy and Rove), without having sufficient intelligence. > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > I’m glad that we have such omniscient mods here that they know, with an absolute certainty, that the risk is absolutely zero that this issue won’t hurt the Dems in Nov, and therefore aren’t willing to take the trivial steps to take it off the table. > > No risk whatsoever. You’d bet your life on it. You’d bet the lives of your kids on it. Gotcha. I am not in a position to influence any decision to expose or conceal his transcripts and so I do not spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about the topic. It may very well hurt the Democrats in November or Obama in 2012. My only point was that a claim that some great number of candidates (3) had their transcripts outed in two of the last three elections seems weak when it was only an issue bcause of the behavior of the candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Don123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@Don123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don123)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/113 "2010-08-06T04:04:19Z")
Kagan, Obama, and the Harvard Legacy of Literary Fraud > **[Kagan, Obama, and the Harvard Legacy of Literary Fraud](https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2010/05/kagan_obama_and_the_harvard_le.html)** > > When Barack Obama’s two faculty mentors at Harvard Law got in trouble for plagiarism, they were rescued by Dean Elena Kagan.In 1989, Harvard Law professor Laurence Tribe hired first-year Harvard law student Barack Obama as his research assistan... ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/114 "2010-08-06T04:06:44Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > Kagan, Obama, and the Harvard Legacy of Literary Fraud > > [http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/05/kagan\_obama\_and\_the\_harvard\_le.html](http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/05/kagan_obama_and_the_harvard_le.html) Interestingly the accusations of fraud are not against Kagan and Obama. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/115 "2010-08-06T04:18:41Z")
You gotta connect the dot. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752/116 "2010-08-09T02:02:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > > > This is something I actually never thought of before - that W wasn’t stupid, per se, he just played one on TV, so people would relate more, want to drink a beer with him, etc. > > I have never understood how people thought that someone who was actually stupid could successfully graduate from Yale, (at whatever class position), and then make it through flight training in the Air Force. It doesn’t make sense. > There are videos of GWB in debates for his first run at the Texas governorship in which he is articulate and decisive. His later debates and press conferences had to have been a choice of style, (unless he is suffering a seriously debilitating illness of the mind). I have always thought that he was intellectually lazy, choosing to go with his gut instead of actually taking the time to become informed of a situation before making a decision, but he could not have actually made it to the positions he did, (even with the help of Poppy and Rove), without having sufficient intelligence. > > > [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > > > I’m glad that we have such omniscient mods here that they know, with an absolute certainty, that the risk is absolutely zero that this issue won’t hurt the Dems in Nov, and therefore aren’t willing to take the trivial steps to take it off the table. > > > > No risk whatsoever. You’d bet your life on it. You’d bet the lives of your kids on it. Gotcha. > > I am not in a position to influence any decision to expose or conceal his transcripts and so I do not spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about the topic. It may very well hurt the Democrats in November or Obama in 2012. My only point was that a claim that some great number of candidates (3) had their transcripts outed in two of the last three elections seems weak when it was only an issue bcause of the behavior of the candidates. I am sure you heard of gentlemens Cs. The rich and powerful at the Ivy leagues get in and get grades. Bush’s family is in position to do a lot for Yale. They can raise money, provide speakers for them and donate buildings and huge amounts of money. They can provide political connections and important jobs. The Ivies know better than to screw up that relationship. They scratch each others backs and we get the bill . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-harvard-transcript-an-issue/548752.md?page=5)