# Obama's Jobs Speech **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442 "2011-09-06T23:28:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/61 "2011-09-08T01:10:34Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It’s not?! You mean you’re deliberately proving Half Sigma’s point, using hyper emotional rhetoric to distract and chill any rational discussion?! No. You are the one trying to stifle criticism by calling anyone who points out the obvious, consistent racism of your positions hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/62 "2011-09-08T01:21:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. You are the one trying to stifle criticism by calling anyone who points out the obvious, consistent racism of your positions hysterical. Again, you go for the moral outrage and shaming language. The problem is that this seems to be your only argument. You are either incapable, or unwilling (for good reason?), to debate immigration on the merits. This is the problem Half Sigma alludes to above and why public discourse is so corrupted - even intelligent people like Robert Reich end up sounding like idiots because they are terrified of getting called the equivalent of a heretic by people like you. So an obvious policy move to address the job situation cannot be discussed - out of fear. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/63 "2011-09-08T01:30:38Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Again, you go for the moral outrage and shaming language. The problem is that this seems to be your only argument. You are either incapable, or unwilling (for good reason?), to debate immigration on the merits. No; the problem is I see no reason to think that this is anything but yet another of your attempts to push racism. > [@Chen019](#): > > This is the problem Half Sigma alludes to above and why public discourse is so corrupted - even intelligent people like Robert Reich end up sounding like idiots because they are terrified of getting called the equivalent of a heretic by people like you. > > So an obvious policy move to address the job situation cannot be discussed - out of fear. :rolleyes: No, it’s not “obvious” at all that legal American citizens want to take jobs as abused near-slaves at below minimum wage and in horrible conditions. In fact, it’s illegal. And the so-called anti-immigrant movement in America is rabidly racist; it is far more concerned with persecuting brown people regardless of nationality than with immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/64 "2011-09-08T01:33:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; the problem is I see no reason to think that this is anything but yet another of your attempts to push racism. > > :rolleyes: No, it’s not “obvious” at all that legal American citizens want to take jobs as abused near-slaves at below minimum wage and in horrible conditions. In fact, it’s illegal. And the so-called anti-immigrant movement in America is rabidly racist; it is far more concerned with persecuting brown people regardless of nationality than with immigration. Haha, you see it wouldn’t matter who suggested that reducing immigration might be a sensible idea when there is high unemployment. You would use the same shaming language. Because it is far more effective than rational argument! That, and the fact that you have no rational argument. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/65 "2011-09-08T01:38:25Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Haha, you see it wouldn’t matter who suggested that reducing immigration might be a sensible idea when there is high unemployment. You would use the same shaming language. Because it is far more effective than rational argument! > > That, and the fact that you have no rational argument. 🙂 No, I and others already provided some. You just aren’t interested in acknowledging them because it doesn’t involve calling brown people inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/66 "2011-09-08T01:44:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, I and others already provided some. You just aren’t interested in acknowledging them because it doesn’t involve calling brown people inferior. Ok, then perhaps you could answer a basic suggestion outlined by [Half Sigma above](http://www.halfsigma.com/2010/04/why-we-are-doomed-to-five-to-eight-years-of-unemployment.html): > [@](#): > > If the economy isn’t creating enough jobs to cover the growth of the U.S. population, all we need to do is stop the U.S. population from growing, which can easily be done by cutting off immigration, because nearly all of the growth in the U.S. population comes from immigration. Another bigot over here [too](http://www.carolmswain.net/2011/05/unemployment-immigration-and-the-betrayal-of-black-men/). A black bigot no less! > [@](#): > > I have testified before Congress several times presenting data that show that illegal aliens compete directly against low-wage, low-skilled blacks, poor whites, and legal Hispanics for a dwindling supply of jobs. What is sad is that my son was one of the millions of black people who voted for Barack Obama. Unfortunately, the Obama Administration has not shown compassion for native workers who are suffering from unemployment, job displacement, and stagnant or declining wages. The influx of low-skilled guest workers and illegal aliens hurts native-born Hispanics, blacks, and poor whites. > > The President could help alleviate the problem by simply enforcing existing laws and regulations. Immigration enforcement through the reinstatement of the Social Security No-Match Rule and the use of an enhanced E-Verify Program would release millions of jobs into the hands of law-abiding Americans. Instead of using this commonsense approach to addressing massive unemployment, the Obama Administration panders and plays politics with an issue that is of utmost importance to millions of American citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/67 "2011-09-08T01:52:15Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Ok, then perhaps you could answer a basic suggestion outlined by [Half Sigma above](http://www.halfsigma.com/2010/04/why-we-are-doomed-to-five-to-eight-years-of-unemployment.html): Already answered. Nobody is going to take those hellish jobs legally; either they’d be done by machines, outsourced to another country or just go away. It wouldn’t increase jobs; if anything it would hurt the economy by reducing the number of consumers and taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/68 "2011-09-08T02:01:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Already answered. Nobody is going to take those hellish jobs legally; either they’d be done by machines, outsourced to another country or just go away. It wouldn’t increase jobs; if anything it would hurt the economy by reducing the number of consumers and taxpayers. Why do you think nobody is going to take those jobs legally? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/69 "2011-09-08T02:02:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Already answered. Nobody is going to take those hellish jobs legally; either they’d be done by machines, outsourced to another country or just go away. It wouldn’t increase jobs; if anything it would hurt the economy by reducing the number of consumers and taxpayers. See, _that_ is a reasonable argument. “Your methods would not achieve your intended goals, and here’s why” is a good way of making your point. “Isolationism doesn’t work in the real world, and here’s why” would be another. “If you don’t think it’s your government’s job to worry about assisting would-be immigrants, you’re a racist” is not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/70 "2011-09-08T02:06:09Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Why do you think nobody is going to take those jobs legally? Because it would be illegal for people to work for below minimum wage under the kinds of conditions illegal immigrants work under, not to mention you can’t call INS and have them haul off your legal workers just before payday. The jobs exist in the first place because they are brutally exploitative. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/71 "2011-09-08T02:08:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t look it up, but I don’t find that statement unbelievable. Most 1st world countries have a reproduction rate right at, or below, the replacement rate. I’d be surprised if we were substantially different. We are. Our birth rate exceeds our death rate by about 5 per 1,000. Our migrant rate is about 4 per 1,000. So, immigration is not even half of our growth, not “nearly all”. [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/72 "2011-09-08T03:12:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because it would be illegal for people to work for below minimum wage under the kinds of conditions illegal immigrants work under, not to mention you can’t call INS and have them haul off your legal workers just before payday. The jobs exist in the first place because they are brutally exploitative. It’s a given that illegal immigration should be addressed, but Half Sigma is also referring to lowering immigration generally. In relation to low skill immigration in previous debates on the topic I’ve cited page 334 of this [report](http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page=334#p2000633a9960334001) by the National Research Council. They found found that unskilled immigrants on average collect $125,277.62 (2011 dollars) more in their lifetime than they pay in taxes. These figures may underestimate the costs. Since this study was made the costs of welfare services to lower income people has further expanded. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/73 "2011-09-08T03:37:11Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It’s a given that illegal immigration should be addressed, but Half Sigma is also referring to lowering immigration generally. In relation to low skill immigration in previous debates on the topic I’ve cited page 334 of this [report](http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=5779&page=334#p2000633a9960334001) by the National Research Council. They found found that unskilled immigrants on average collect $125,277.62 (2011 dollars) more in their lifetime than they pay in taxes. Um, do you have the right page? The table 7.5 that you’re citing doesn’t come close to supporting that figure. What’s more, it’s pretty likely that unskilled immigrant labor is a net burden (if they are) on the populace because they are not given any benefits or even a living wage from their employers. So any outlay on the part of the taxpayer is really a subsidy for the businesses that hire them. This is an outlay that would be required no matter who the companies hired as long as the pay and benefits remain at the current levels. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/74 "2011-09-08T03:43:57Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > We are. Our birth rate exceeds our death rate by about 5 per 1,000. Our migrant rate is about 4 per 1,000. So, immigration is not even half of our growth, not “nearly all”. > > [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html) Thanks for bringing this factual cite to the debate. I now await **Chen019** withdrawing his support for the argument of eliminating immigration to stop growth, since the whole premise has now shown to be completely and totally false. \ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/75 "2011-09-08T03:58:27Z")
So soothing, on a late summers night. That one is my favorite. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/76 "2011-09-08T05:13:10Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Um, do you have the right page? The table 7.5 that you’re citing doesn’t come close to supporting that figure. > > What’s more, it’s pretty likely that unskilled immigrant labor is a net burden (if they are) on the populace because they are not given any benefits or even a living wage from their employers. So any outlay on the part of the taxpayer is really a subsidy for the businesses that hire them. This is an outlay that would be required no matter who the companies hired as long as the pay and benefits remain at the current levels. TABLE 7.5 Average Fiscal Impact of an Immigrant Overall and by Education Level (1996 dollars) less than high school education = - $89,000. Adjusted to 2011 dollars = [$128,152.06](http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/) overall negative fiscal impact. (sorry, above I was using $1997, so the net burden is actually greater than I stated above). ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/77 "2011-09-08T05:18:52Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Thanks for bringing this factual cite to the debate. I now await **Chen019** withdrawing his support for the argument of eliminating immigration to stop growth, since the whole premise has now shown to be completely and totally false. > > \ That is further evidence of why immigration may be reduced if there is already population replacement & even growth. Again, look at the statistics in the post above on the negative overall fiscal impact of low skill immigration. It makes little sense to maintain low skill immigration, especially given a labor surplus during high unemployment. That’s not even getting onto the [downstream costs](http://www.frumforum.com/the-future-costs-of-todays-cheap-labor). If a population requires ongoing affirmative action then you have to question why you would seek to increase their overall numbers via immigration. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/78 "2011-09-08T05:44:54Z")
Take the immigration crap to another thread, please. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/79 "2011-09-08T06:02:08Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Take the immigration crap to another thread, please. No. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442/80 "2011-09-08T07:19:39Z")
**Der Trihs** and **Chen019** , (and anyone chiming in to support either of them), you need to stop the personal sniping, immediately. **Der Trihs** , you need to stop imputing motives to other posters. **Chen019** , if you want to argue the importance of curtailing immigration, either legal or illegal, open a new thread. This thread was intended to be a discussion of President Obama’s speech and plans and if he did not put it in there, it is a different topic. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-jobs-speech/595442.md?page=5)