# Obama's Libyan Adventure-Will It End Badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/1 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")
I think so. First, we have no idea what we are supporting. For all we know, we might have a new Iran style regime in Libya. Second, it is impossible to bomb targets without killing innocent people. Third, Russia and China will use this to attack the USA. For a guy who denounced Bush for jumping into wars, Obama is pretty careless-he didn’t bother to consult Congress-he just decided that attacking Ghadafi was the thing to do. I think this ill-advised adventure will shortly blow up in his face. BTW, Russia and Bolivia have suggested that Obama return his Nobel Peace Prize-what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/2 "2011-03-22T17:44:00Z")
Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/3 "2011-03-22T17:59:22Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think so. I think not. > [@](#): > > First, we have no idea what we are supporting. For all we know, we might have a new Iran style regime in Libya. You against democracy if it means people vote in a government against your interests? > [@](#): > > Second, it is impossible to bomb targets without killing innocent people. I’m sure it’s possible. But so what? You need to bomb targets to establish a no fly zone. > [@](#): > > Third, Russia and China will use this to attack the USA. They withheld their vetoes from the UN vote. It’s hard to see that they have a lot of standing to bitch. > [@](#): > > For a guy who denounced Bush for jumping into wars, Obama is pretty careless-he didn’t bother to consult Congress-he just decided that attacking Ghadafi was the thing to do. Obama had a UN Mandate, the support of the Arab League and broad coalition unlike Bush who had nothing but his gut and cherry picked intelligence. > [@](#): > > I think this ill-advised adventure will shortly blow up in his face. I think you have a very poor understanding of current events and should find better news sources so you can be better informed. > [@](#): > > BTW, Russia and Bolivia have suggested that Obama return his Nobel Peace Prize-what do you think? Shit, if Bolivia is pissed whatever shall we do? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/4 "2011-03-22T18:06:19Z")
I see **Lobohan** addressed some of what I was going to say, so let me just post this excerpt from [here](http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2011/sc10200.doc.htm): > [@](#): > > Adopting resolution 1973 (2011) by a vote of 10 in favour to none against, with 5 abstentions (Brazil, China, Germany, India, Russian Federation), the Council authorized Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to protect civilians under threat of attack in the country, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory — requesting them to immediately inform the Secretary-General of such measures. As you can see, there are other countries involved. This is not Obama’s mission. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/5 "2011-03-22T18:14:00Z")
I’m not sure it’s fair to refer to this as Obama’s Libyan Adventure. My impression is that he did not particularly want to do this, but more that he has allowed it to happen after considering input from his advisers and the Security Council. As such things go, he’s used relatively minor amounts of U.S. forces, and appears to be looking for a way to hand the whole thing off to other countries as soon as practical. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/6 "2011-03-22T18:18:36Z")
> [@](#): > > First, we have no idea what we are supporting. For all we know, we might have a new Iran style regime in Libya. We aren’t supporting anything…we are simply not allowing Kadaffi to use his air force or heavy mechanized forces against his own civilians. What comes out of this will be up to the Libyan’s. > [@](#): > > Second, it is impossible to bomb targets without killing innocent people. That’s true…all you can do is try your best and minimize civilian causalities to the greatest extent possible. > [@](#): > > Third, Russia and China will use this to attack the USA. Huh? They oppose the US (and NATO) intervening, but they won’t attack us for doing so…even if by ‘attack’ you simply mean with words. > [@](#): > > For a guy who denounced Bush for jumping into wars, Obama is pretty careless-he didn’t bother to consult Congress-he just decided that attacking Ghadafi was the thing to do. Oh horseshit. :rolleyes: This is a totally different situation, even if you are talking about the US invasion of Afghanistan. For one thing, we AREN’T invading…merely using air assets. The President has had the authority to launch an operation like this without Congressional approval for decades now. > [@](#): > > I think this ill-advised adventure will shortly blow up in his face. I seriously doubt it, since our part in it already seems to be winding down. I was kind of neutral about the US getting involved…I would have preferred that the Europeans take the lead on this and handle it, to be honest. But I don’t think that what Obama has done has been a mistake, and I don’t see how it could or would blow up in our collective faces. When Obama starts staging troops somewhere in North Africa for an invasion of Libya, well then come back and we’ll talk some more. > [@](#): > > BTW, Russia and Bolivia have suggested that Obama return his Nobel Peace Prize-what do you think? I think they are full of shit if it’s true…and the word hypocrite keeps popping into my head… -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/7 "2011-03-22T18:40:21Z")
Feh! Putin is hedging his bets. If Ghadaffi loses, he loses nothing, if he wins, he can say “Hey, guy, I was on your side the whole time!” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/8 "2011-03-22T18:43:52Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > BTW, Russia and Bolivia have suggested that Obama return his Nobel Peace Prize-what do you think? I think that the Prize was an embarrassment is the first place (probably including to Obama himself); he never earned it, so taking it away from him would be just as empty as giving it was. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/9 "2011-03-22T19:01:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Obama had a UN Mandate, the support of the Arab League I was out of town last weekend, so apparently I missed the ratification of the Constitutional amendment transferring Congress’ war-declaration authority to the UN and the Arab League. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/10 "2011-03-22T19:12:59Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I was out of town last weekend, so apparently I missed the ratification of the Constitutional amendment transferring Congress’ war-declaration authority to the UN and the Arab League. Were you out of town for the [last 113 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States)? > [@](#): > > On at least 125 occasions, the President has acted without prior express military authorization from Congress.[12] These include instances in which the United States fought in Korea in 1950, the Philippine-American War from 1898–1903, and in Nicaragua in 1927. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/11 "2011-03-22T19:31:46Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I was out of town last weekend, so apparently I missed the ratification of the Constitutional amendment transferring Congress’ war-declaration authority to the UN and the Arab League. If you want to debate the constitutionality of the War Powers Act, that’s a very good issue. But what is not in dispute is that Congress has passed a law in 1973 which specifically gives the President the authority to conduct a war without prior authorization, but with the caveat that he can’t conduct it for too long. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/12 "2011-03-22T20:06:42Z")
And it won’t be [long](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/us-favours-gadhafi-stepping-down-obama-says/article1950212/): > [@](#): > > Gen. Ham spoke to reporters at a news conference a few hours before President Barack Obama said the United States would turn over leadership of the military operation to other, unnamed countries within a “matter of days, not weeks.” Speaking at a news conference in Santiago, Chile, the president declined to be more specific. Then he said “Give me Ham on 5. And hold the Mayo.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/13 "2011-03-22T20:14:25Z")
Obama can’t win. He was accused by the Repubs of dithering because he did not jump in a couple weeks ago. Now that he is in, they complain because they were not properly informed. Were the Repubs on a retreat with no ability to read or hear the news? Were they really sleeping through the UN debates and arm twisting? Did they not know our allies were pushing us to act? Was RALPH at the same retreat? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/14 "2011-03-22T20:24:49Z")
I am against foreign intervention in all cases except when a nation with which we are allied is under attack. Let Libya sort itself out. This is the United States of America, not the United States of World Democracy Enforcement. I’m disappointed that Obama would use our armed forces in another foreign intervention we have absolutely no business being involved with. Hopefully it’s over soon. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/15 "2011-03-22T20:45:03Z")
I am dead against the Libyan adventure. I hate it when we justify killing innocent citizens and destroy infrastructure (collateral damage). The rubble will be a constant reminder of America’s gift of war . The funerals will create more American haters. But it is legal. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/16 "2011-03-23T07:46:59Z")
What is Obama’s desired endgame? Bush at least had one in Iraq (get rid of Saddam). Sending planes on bombing runs seems mighty inefficient. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/17 "2011-03-23T08:40:15Z")
The OP is clearly pretty badly flawed, for the reasons people have been pointing out: “Obama’s Adventure” is neither Obama’s nor even an (Iraq-style) adventure, and there’s a mountain of precedent for the President’s limited use of force w/o Congressional consultation, especially when the situation is time-sensitive and the action is multilateral (can’t run back to Congress to OK every change while he’s planning and negotiating with France et al. about what to do and how). In particular, the phrase: “… Obama is pretty careless-he didn’t bother to consult Congress-he just decided that attacking Ghadafi was the thing to do” flies right by hyperbole to land squarely on mischaracterization. All that said, I think there are good reasons to be apprehensive about Western (and in particular American) intervention, and I’m glad that the President seems eager to hand off as much responsibility to other countries as possible. To me, the most troubling aspect of this is that by intervening as we (the intervening countries) have, we have tacitly declared that any resolution that leaves Qaddafi in power is unacceptable; there’s just no way that the West is going to walk away from this with merely a shrug at the rebels’ defeat and a promise from Qaddafi to ease up on the murder. We’ve declared for regime change, and none of us know how difficult that is going to be. If air power alone proves insufficient (as it may well), then Libya becomes a multilateral Iraq. (Speaking of which, David Brooks had [a nice article](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/22/opinion/22brooks.html) about the characteristic problems of multilateralism.) ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/18 "2011-03-23T12:56:24Z")
> [@](#): > > The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation. Barack Obama, [December the 20, 2007](http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/ObamaQA/). ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/19 "2011-03-23T13:18:17Z")
Well, as I said, there seems to be no defined objective or end for this caper. I can see Ghadafi’s mercenaries fighting on for a good while…meanwhile the country is devastated. And the bill is rising ($232,000,000 for the USA alone). I am waiting for an errant bomb or cruise missile to hit a hospital or orphanage-and gory photos splashed on the world’s newspapers. The price of oil is rising again-and Obama seems unconcerned-amybe a 300 point drop in the DJA might upset his composure? It reminds me of something I read years ago, from ancient history: It seems that the Persians? had succeeded in trapping a Roman Army in a gorge-there was no escape. The Persian commander turned to his advisor for advice on what to do-the advisor answered “kill them all…or let them go”. The Persian general pondered the two possibilites and asked his trusted advisor if there might be a third option-there was none.“there was no course that would either eliminate your enemy or make them your friends”. I hope we terminate this thing as soon as possible.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/20 "2011-03-23T13:27:15Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you want to debate the constitutionality of the War Powers Act, that’s a very good issue. > > But what is not in dispute is that Congress has passed a law in 1973 which specifically gives the President the authority to conduct a war without prior authorization, but with the caveat that he can’t conduct it for too long. That’s not true. The War Powers Resolution limits that power to certain circumstances. We’ve been debating that in the Pit thread. I posted the relevant part of that Act there. Here it is again: > [@](#): > > (c) Presidential executive power as Commander-in-Chief; limitation > The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to > (1) a declaration of war, > (2) specific statutory authorization, or > (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=2)