# Obama's Libyan Adventure-Will It End Badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/201 "2011-03-27T23:40:21Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > What was the vote? Is “obtain the advice and consent” equivalent to a vote? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/202 "2011-03-28T00:03:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So he advised Congress of what he was going to do ahead of time. Now they have until 60 days are up to come up with their position and potentially stop military action. No, he didn’t. He advised a few members of Congress. He has not gone before the house. And his public address is tomorrow. This is the kind of stuff that will bite him in the ass if things go south. The question put forth is whether it will end badly. It’s hard to say (from day one) because the President has not been transparent in his actions. Al Aqaeda has entered the mix and taken possession of anti-aircraft weapons. We have no clear cut idea of who we’re backing in this civil war. “Not Gaddafi” isn’t a political party. As much as I would personally like to go into every country and “fix things” that’s not feasible and it’s not the job of my country. These tings are rarely black and white. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/203 "2011-03-28T00:06:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We have no clear cut idea of who we’re backing in this civil war. The UNSC resolution that we’re acting under does not call for us to back anybody, at all. It calls for us to oppose Quadaffi. While you may argue that the result is essentially the same, I argue that the process is quintessentially and vitally different. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/204 "2011-03-28T00:07:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …Al Aqaeda has entered the mix and taken possession of anti-aircraft weapons. … The merest hint of substantiation would vastly improve this. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/205 "2011-03-28T00:12:50Z")
> [@Digital\_Stimulus](#): > > Is “obtain the advice and consent” equivalent to a vote? “Advise and consent” in Article II, Section 2 actually deals with the ratification of treaties and the appointment of public officials. As far as the role of CIC goes, the phrase isn’t used. > [@Magiver](#): > > He advised a few members of Congress. He has not gone before the house. And his public address is tomorrow. This is the kind of stuff that will bite him in the ass if things go south. He advised the leadership of the HoR and Senate, both parties, in meetings prior to any action, and by official letter within 72 hours. He has hardly been reticent with official press releases and public statements regarding the US role in Libya. What he didn’t do was call a joint session of Congress, give a prime time televised address (yet) and go personally to **Magiver** to explain his intentions and request permission. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/206 "2011-03-28T00:17:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, he didn’t. He advised a few members of Congress. He has not gone before the house. I think **FinnAgain** is exactly correct. He only has to advise a few members of Congress. He did. (and 18 members is not an arbitrary number). Now it’s up to Congress to decide when they want to stop it (if they even want to). The unwritten significance is not that the President can’t go to war without Congress, but that he can’t stay and create a “Vietnam” type war without their approval. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/207 "2011-03-28T02:03:39Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I think **FinnAgain** is exactly correct. He only has to advise a few members of Congress. He did. (and 18 members is not an arbitrary number). Now it’s up to Congress to decide when they want to stop it (if they even want to). > > The unwritten significance is not that the President can’t go to war without Congress, but that he can’t stay and create a “Vietnam” type war without their approval. I wasn’t arguing a legal nuance. I was addressing the op’s question. “Transparency” was an Obama campaign promise that has seemed to have gone by the wayside. So what it boils down to is that a week after attacking Libya the majority of Congress will hear the President’s game plan at the same time the public does. That gives us a starting point as to whether it will end badly or not. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/208 "2011-03-28T02:22:19Z")
If it were even possible to frame a _plan_, given the fluidity of the situation, instead of objectives, I don’t doubt he would. But the objective he’s made pretty clear - to get rid of Khadafy. Naturally, there are those, even on this board, who would prefer he stay and that the massacre resume. _Why_ they would want that, though, is so unclear as to permit uncharitable inferences about their motives. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/209 "2011-03-28T02:59:12Z")
Do we really need to insinuate uncharitable motives in those opposed to this action? Isolationism and anti-imperialism are honest positions to hold even if you disagree, as is a plain old fashioned objection to foreign intrigues and entanglements. Not to mention the well founded fear of unintended consequences and a rigorous expectation that American blood (or the blood of innocents abroad) not be shed lightly. There are valid and honorable reasons to oppose this adventure, **Elvis** , and I resent being part of aspersions against honest objectors, even if only by my association with “your” side of the argument. [/sanctimony] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/210 "2011-03-28T03:10:30Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Isolationism and anti-imperialism are honest positions to hold even if you disagree Isolationism is a fantasy, and this is hardly imperialism (or we’d still be supporting the guy who kept the oil flowing all these decades). > [@](#): > > as is a plain old fashioned objection to foreign intrigues and entanglements. Which again is simple isolationism, and does not need to be listed separately. > [@](#): > > Not to mention the well founded fear of unintended consequences Which, of course, occur _whether you act or not_, and therefore cannot be a reason for either. > [@](#): > > and a rigorous expectation that American blood (or the blood of innocents abroad) not be shed lightly. If you can give any reason to believe that any blood is being shed “lightly” by anyone but Khadafy, then please do so. Can you? If the “honest objectors” you refer to \*truly \*think otherwise, something that is difficult to believe but let’s follow the thought, then yes, those motives are open to aspersion on the grounds of either dishonesty or simple fantasization, as described above. As, of course, are any motives based on _ad hoc_ assertions of principle, or merely motives based on personality or party, if such is the case, and which unfortunately can be inferred from at least some recent posts on this board and have even been stated outright by some. Meanwhile, that the massacres would have continued is fact. That we had and have the ability to stop them is fact. To ignore that and to stick to the positions you describe instead to rationalize it is hard to defend morally, isn’t it? Inferring less-considered motives is actually doing those who assert those positions a fucking favor. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/211 "2011-03-28T03:23:09Z")
Yeah, it will end badly, the rebels are linked with al-Qaeda 🙂 > **[Access Restricted](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html)** Also, the justification for going is suspect. > [@](#): > > President Barack Obama says he’s intervening to prevent atrocities in Libya. But details of behind-the-scenes debates at the White House show he’s going to war in part to rehabilitate an idea… **the president and some of his advisers are so eager to rehabilitate the idea of preventive intervention that they’re exaggerating the violence they say they are intervening to prevent in Libya. “The effort to shoe-horn this into an imminent genocide model is strained,” says one senior administration official. That’s dangerous. Americans deserve an honest explanation when their leaders take them to war.** > > Obama and his aides know they are taking a big risk. “It’s a huge gamble,” says the senior administration official. The administration knows, for example, that al Qaeda, which has active cells in Libya, will try to exploit the power vacuum that will come with a weak or ousted Gaddafi. [Why the U.S. Went to War: Inside the White House Debate on Libya | TIME.com](http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/03/20/why-the-u-s-went-to-war-inside-the-white-house-debate-on-libya/?xid=rss-topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+time%2Ftopstories+%28TIME%3A+Top+Stories%29) > [@](#): > > What is crazy, however, is the consequences-be-damned argument for war on humanitarian grounds that the President has apparently embraced, and the utter vacuum of strategic thinking that seems to be its handmaiden. It would have been far better to leave this hornet’s nest alone, but now that we have poked it with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of ordnance, the worst possible posture to adopt is that of a Boy Scout helping an old lady across the street when only that of a warrior (hopefully French and/or British) will do. [http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/middleeast/2011/03/22/down-the-rabbit-hole/](http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/middleeast/2011/03/22/down-the-rabbit-hole/) ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/212 "2011-03-28T11:38:44Z")
I love the military, social and political geniuses who confidently proclaim an absence of strategic thinking within the Obama administration. Every time I see these blithe proclamations I’m reassured regarding the inevitability of Obama’s second term, but more to the point, I reappreciate the lack of _sturm und drang_ with which he pursues policy. I particularly enjoy the portrayal of Obama and “some of his advisors” as eager neoconservative beavers trying to shoehorn a MENA crisis in order to “rehabilitate” military interventionism. Such insight the Telegraph analysts must have. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/213 "2011-03-28T13:09:42Z")
Just think. If all this concern on the right with Presidential authority, budget issues, strategies and exit plans had been in place back in 2003, we might not have a trillion dollar deficit for them to freak out over now. What’s different? I mean beside the fact that our actions with regard to Libya compared to our actions with regard to Iraq are like the difference between a traffic stop and a SWAT team taking down the SLA? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/214 "2011-03-28T13:17:51Z")
Well, you might argue that he should have learned from the Republicans’ mishandling of Iraq. But in truth, this action and the invasion of Iraq are not remotely comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/215 "2011-03-28T13:42:11Z")
I agree. This action will be probably nothing but a memory by election day 2012, but we’re \*still \*fucking around in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/216 "2011-03-28T13:53:18Z")
All along, I’ve thought that limiting western intervention mostly to a no-fly zone seemed just the tiniest bit feckless. OTOH, it seems to be working, so what do I know? In any event, “ending badly” for the US, for me, would involve a Libya run by frothing-at-the-mouth terrorists, following the miserable deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians and a few thousand US ground troops in a bitter mult-year conflict. Since there is no particular sign at this time of a committment of ground troops, I’d say there’s no particular bad end on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/217 "2011-03-28T13:56:23Z")
Yes it will end badly. But probably better than the alternative. And in any case, it is hardly descriptive to call it Obama’s. More like Sarkozy’s. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/218 "2011-03-28T14:15:28Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Yes it will end badly. But probably better than the alternative. And in any case, it is hardly descriptive to call it Obama’s. More like Sarkozy’s. Don’t you know that anything that happens anywhere in the world is either the fault of or to the credit of whichever American president is in the WH at the time it happens? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/219 "2011-03-28T14:31:13Z")
A minor but interesting point: who remembers the pundits who were totally sure that the Bush the Elder response to the Kuwait invasion made his re-election all but inevitable? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/220 "2011-03-28T15:50:12Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yeah, it will end badly, the rebels are linked with al-Qaeda 🙂 Is there any particular reason you’re happy it will end badly? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=12)