# Obama's Libyan Adventure-Will It End Badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/261 "2011-03-30T16:54:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Perhaps Saudi Arabia can pull its troops out of Bahrain and send them to Libya to help out. I’d be happy for us to provide the transport. So you’d be okay with this mission if we were attacking Bahrain too? Does Bahrain or Saudi Arabia have the exact same conditions as Libya did? Specifically a guy who is poised to commit tens of thousands of civilian murders and the backing of the international community including strong regional support? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/262 "2011-03-30T16:56:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. When the US’s top diplomat says Kadaffi has to go, that is our official policy. But that isn’t necessarily our military goal. The removal of Kahdaffy is, _officially at least_, being undertaken by sanctions and governmental pressures. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/263 "2011-03-30T17:01:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. When the US’s top diplomat says Kadaffi has to go, that is our official policy. You mean like how every US President and Secretary of State for 40 years has been saying Castro has to go? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/264 "2011-03-30T17:06:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But that isn’t necessarily our military goal. The removal of Kahdaffy is, _officially at least_, being undertaken by sanctions and governmental pressures. I don’t think you can draw a distinct line between the two. Do you really think Kadaffi would go without the military action? > [@](#): > > o you’d be okay with this mission if we were attacking Bahrain too? I’m have no idea how you got that from my post. > [@](#): > > Does Bahrain or Saudi Arabia have the exact same conditions as Libya did? Specifically a guy who is poised to commit tens of thousands of civilian murders and the backing of the international community including strong regional support? I actually was being facetious. My point is that Saudi Arabia is supposedly one of the key countries asking us to do this, but in the meantime, they’re just another Kadaffi in the region, even if they might be slightly more benign than MK. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/265 "2011-03-30T17:08:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You mean like how every US President and Secretary of State for 40 years has been saying Castro has to go? Can you provide me a quote of either Obama or HRC saying that Castro must go while we were bombing Cuba? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/266 "2011-03-30T17:11:16Z")
I’ve got the news on right now, and Diane Feinstein is saying “Kadaffi has got to go”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/267 "2011-03-30T17:12:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think you can draw a distinct line between the two. Do you really think Kadaffi would go without the military action? I’m sure both are necessary. But if the military can provide pressure in the form of leveling the playing field for the rebels, I assume that the sanctions and whatnot lever the force pushing him out. > [@](#): > > I’m have no idea how you got that from my post. I thought you were saying, why are we attacking Libya when Bahrain was just as bad. > [@](#): > > I actually was being facetious. My point is that Saudi Arabia is supposedly one of the key countries asking us to do this, but in the meantime, they’re just another Kadaffi in the region, even if they might be slightly more benign than MK. Yeah, but there isn’t a regional and international call for toppling Saudi Arabia. Besides, they bought off their protesters with money, that’s the free market at work. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/268 "2011-03-30T17:27:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you provide me a quote of either Obama or HRC saying that Castro must go while we were bombing Cuba? What does that have to do with it? They say whatever they say. The fact that we’re bombing somebody doesn’t mean we’re more or less serious about it; it just means we have international support for it (usually). We would have bombed Cuba decades ago if we thought we could get away with it, but no other country would support armed action against Cuba purely on the grounds that they’re filthy Commies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/269 "2011-03-30T17:33:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What does that have to do with it? They say whatever they say. The fact that we’re bombing somebody doesn’t mean we’re more or less serious about it; it just means we have international support for it (usually). > > We would have bombed Cuba decades ago if we thought we could get away with it, but no other country would support armed action against Cuba purely on the grounds that they’re filthy Commies. You’re kidding. You really don’t think saying “You must go” has a little more oomph to it when we’re bombing your country? If I stand outside your house yelling: Get out of the house, that’s the same as if I yell: Get out of your house while I fire a machine gun into your windows? As for Bombing Cuba, what makes you think we restrained ourselves? We’ve bombed plenty of places w/o UN approval. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/270 "2011-03-30T17:46:14Z")
France, encouraged to do the right thing by its 10% voting arab population, has placed a bet on the protesters turned rebels and the US and Britain have followed with all the allies they could because there is Oil Europe depends on and Qaddafi was being very, very unreasonable with the scale and style of his repression. His grandiloquence and fiery rhetoric were a PR nightmare for the West. This was easy because almost everybody (rightly) hates and despises Qaddafi. Qatar’s emir most of all, perhaps. The solution to the US to this dilemma is to avoid dead soldiers and keep civilian casualties reasonable so attack with minimum force and maximum precision. The Libyans are grateful, Obama’s cred with the Arab Street goes up. The mantra is no boots on the ground. Without dead soldiers, there is no national outrage and lost elections. This is my take on the situation, here in Morocco. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/271 "2011-03-30T18:28:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re kidding. You really don’t think saying “You must go” has a little more oomph to it when we’re bombing your country? > > As for Bombing Cuba, what makes you think we restrained ourselves? We’ve bombed plenty of places w/o UN approval. Sure it has more oomph. That doesn’t mean we’re that into it. Let me ask you this: which of the following would you most like to remove from office: (1) Kim Jong-Il; (2) Mahmood Ahmedinejad and/or Ali Khamenei; or (3) Muamar Gaddhafi? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/272 "2011-03-30T18:31:11Z")
The Libyan madman or any of the other despots (save for the Saudis) could be the one smart enough to make a deal to keep their ill-gotten gains and get out. So it’s not impossible. But the fact that they haven’t is a sign that megalomania is more of motive to these bastards than personal wealth. Maybe if the rebels can maintain control of some eastern cities and oil fields, the UN will recognize a partition, and a stalemate enforced by international aircraft will succeed. But I think the best bet is for everybody’s favorite (this week) psycho dictator to die as a result of collateral damage from a strategic air strike against the French Embassy… no wait, I meant a milk plant… no that’s not it… oh yeah, a military target. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/273 "2011-03-30T18:38:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure it has more oomph. That doesn’t mean we’re that into it. > > Let me ask you this: which of the following would you most like to remove from office: (1) Kim Jong-Il; (2) Mahmood Ahmedinejad and/or Ali Khamenei; or (3) Muamar Gaddhafi? I would vote (4) All of the Above. In reality, we only have the opportunity to remove one of those at the moment, so Gaddhafi is this week,s lucky winner. We aren’t in there just because he is a bad guy. We are there because he is a bad guy who is currently facing a homegrown rebellion that could succeed with our help. when that happens in NK or Iran we can talk about the others. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/274 "2011-03-30T19:13:17Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > …almost everybody (rightly) hates and despises Qaddafi. Qatar’s emir most of all, perhaps. What is the Emir’s particular beef with Kadaffi? Just curious. > [@RNATB](#): > > Sure it has more oomph. That doesn’t mean we’re that into it. > > Let me ask you this: which of the following would you most like to remove from office: (1) Kim Jong-Il; (2) Mahmood Ahmedinejad and/or Ali Khamenei; or (3) Muamar Gaddhafi? We’re only bombing one of those countries, so I think that’s all that matters. Ahmedinejad, btw, could leave tomorrow and it wouldn’t make much difference. The real power in Iran is with the Council of Guardians. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/275 "2011-03-30T19:30:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure it has more oomph. That doesn’t mean we’re that into it. > > Let me ask you this: which of the following would you most like to remove from office: (1) Kim Jong-Il; (2) Mahmood Ahmedinejad and/or Ali Khamenei; or (3) Muamar Gaddhafi? Maybe we could send all three guys tickets to a Justin Bieber concert, and kill everybody that shows up. (I don’t believe that JB and his fans literally deserve to die, but hey, it’s just collateral damage). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/276 "2011-03-30T19:45:23Z")
Jesus Christ. Just answer the goddamn question, people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/277 "2011-03-30T19:54:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Jesus Christ. Just answer the goddamn question, people. It’s not a question relevant to the military action being taken in Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/278 "2011-03-30T21:20:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure it has more oomph. That doesn’t mean we’re that into it. > > Let me ask you this: which of the following would you most like to remove from office: (1) Kim Jong-Il; (2) Mahmood Ahmedinejad and/or Ali Khamenei; or (3) Muamar Gaddhafi? 2, These people are crazy and think the 12th Imam is coming which will involve great upheaval. I reeeeaaaaaallllly don’t want Iran to get nukes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/279 "2011-03-30T23:14:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not a question relevant to the military action being taken in Libya. Sure it is. The point is that our policy depends on what we can get away with, not on what we actually want. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/280 "2011-03-31T00:01:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure it is. The point is that our policy depends on what we can get away with, not on what we actually want. Yeah, and now we think we can get away with regime change in Libya. We’re just going about it differently than Bush would have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=15)