# Obama's Libyan Adventure-Will It End Badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/281 "2011-04-03T20:57:58Z")
On the news today, they were talking about arming and training the rebels. This sounds like a replay of Afghanistan-10 years from now, the people we trained will be shooting at us!😕 ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/282 "2011-04-03T21:09:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It locks in the goal that whatever we’ve done so far won’t be a success until Kadaffi is gone. Whether we get rid of him or someone else does, isn’t important. > > Remember, I’m trying to understand how we determine if we’ve been successful here. I originally thought, per **TriPolar** ’s posts, that we could be successful even with Kadaffi is still in power. I think that is not correct. (No jab at **TriPolar**. I think he was just giving his own opinion.) Ding ding ding. That’s it. We’re going to look bad if he stays in power. President Obama will look like a total joke. The U.S. won’t “force” Ghadafi out of power (we’ll just rip up his armed forces and supply the opposition…ehm) because it’s not popular with the public. According to Obama, our “goal” is to provide a no-fly zone and “protect” the Libyan people so they can rebel. Except…we’re involved in a regime change. We are at war with Libya. It doesn’t matter what you call it. Obama’s real problem will come after Ghadafi is removed. Who takes charge now? I hate these tip-toe military interventions. My God, if you want to win, you go in and wipe shit out. That’s how it’s done. But noooooo, we have to be all humanitarian about overthrowing governments. _sigh_ If the majority of the Libyan people were truly against Ghadafi, then we could have had it all done in a weekend and they would have supported us. But since that’s not popular with anyone, we have to act like we are “forced” to do something and then we’re “forced” to up the ante and we just “had no choice” because “that guy was bad”. :o Ghadafi may be a jerk, but I wasn’t losing much sleep over him. Personally, I’m more focused on getting our asses out of Iraq and Afghanistan and saving resources for North Korea and Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/283 "2011-04-03T21:14:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, and now we think we can get away with regime change in Libya. We’re just going about it differently than Bush would have. :thumbs: since we don’t have a thumbs up smiley. Bush tried the sensationalist approach. Obama took the intellectual one. In the end, they were both very bad ideas about\* spreading democracy\* and _fighting for peace_. The Bush-Obama doctrine: [http://grasshopperherder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/manbehind-1.jpg](http://grasshopperherder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/manbehind-1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/284 "2011-04-03T21:30:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, and now we think we can get away with regime change in Libya. We’re just going about it differently than Bush would have. We “can get away with” supporting an existing \*indigenous \*rebellion supported by the bulk of its populace, that requires some military assistance to put it over the top. We can’t get away with trying to completely demolish an existing state and all of its institutions, _in opposition to its people_, hoping for some neocon fantasyland that involves their gratitude for our continuing “oversight” of their government, to emerge somehow. Your attempts at false equivalence have become desperately threadbare to the point of laughability, **John**. It is _really_ time for some reconsideration, friend. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/285 "2011-04-03T21:49:04Z")
And didn’t the Kosovo case showed that the goal of preventing genocide was enough? AFAIK it was not guaranteed that Milošević would be taken down, The main objective was for him to back down and retreat. That later he was removed from power was a good thing, but not the main objective. I mention this because, while I see that many would want to see the non removal of Ka-Daffy as a failure, the reality is that a truce is very likely and expected taking into consideration the similar Kosovo case. A de facto division of Libya could come, but as the further partition of the Balkans showed, it may be that we are headed for that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/286 "2011-04-03T22:02:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We “can get away with” supporting an existing \*indigenous \*rebellion supported by the bulk of its populace, that requires some military assistance to put it over the top. We can’t get away with trying to completely demolish an existing state and all of its institutions, _in opposition to its people_, hoping for some neocon fantasyland that involves their gratitude for our continuing “oversight” of their government, to emerge somehow. > > Your attempts at false equivalence have become desperately threadbare to the point of laughability, **John**. It is _really_ time for some reconsideration, friend. I was pointing out a difference, not an equivalence. I don’t know why you keep injecting yourself into discussions I’m having with other people and throwing out comments completely out of context with that discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/287 "2011-04-03T22:31:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And didn’t the Kosovo case showed that the goal of preventing genocide was enough? AFAIK it was not guaranteed that Milošević would be taken down, The main objective was for him to back down and retreat. > > That later he was removed from power was a good thing, but not the main objective. > > I mention this because, while I see that many would want to see the non removal of Ka-Daffy as a failure, the reality is that a truce is very likely and expected taking into consideration the similar Kosovo case. A de facto division of Libya could come, but as the further partition of the Balkans showed, it may be that we are headed for that. Two things: 1) Isn’t our critique of Kosovo that we acted too slowly? 2) I’m not convinced Ghadafi’s actions amount to genocide. Sure, he’s a bad guy, but it’s only going to be “enough” if he is removed from power. We said he’s going. If he doesn’t, it won’t be enough. Obama couldn’t make Libya look _too_ much like it was “about the Libyan” people. If you make that argument, well, we have about ten other governments to start attacking right now. But if we do “win” this thing, then we can be praised as heroes who killed all the bad guys and spread some peace and democracy in the Middle East. _sigh_ This better not set up poor precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/288 "2011-04-03T22:40:20Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And didn’t the Kosovo case showed that the goal of preventing genocide was enough? Libya is not, and never was going to be genocide. Libyans are pretty much a homogeneous ethnic group. We leapt at the opportunity to “protect civilians” when the rebels claimed that Qaddaffi was going to massacre the entire population of Benghazi. That wasn’t in the cards either. We’re not there to prevent genocide. We’re not there to protect civilians. We’re there because we don’t like Qaddaffi. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/289 "2011-04-03T22:41:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Libya is not, and never was going to be genocide. Libyans are pretty much a homogeneous ethnic group. We leapt at the opportunity to “protect civilians” when the rebels claimed that Qaddaffi was going to massacre the entire population of Benghazi. That wasn’t in the cards either. > > We’re not there to prevent genocide. We’re not there to protect civilians. We’re there because we don’t like Qaddaffi. And they have oil. Gadaffy as pretty benign the last few years. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/290 "2011-04-03T22:47:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I hate these tip-toe military interventions. My God, if you want to win, you go in and wipe shit out. That’s how it’s done. But noooooo, we have to be all humanitarian about overthrowing governments. “Wiping shit out” gets the overthrowing part accomplished quickly, but makes a lot of people hate you for a long time in the aftermath. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/291 "2011-04-03T22:52:51Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Two things: 1) Isn’t our critique of Kosovo that we acted too slowly? I have seen many critics said that we acted too slow in Libya. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > 1. I’m not convinced Ghadafi’s actions amount to genocide. When a dictator says that the traitors would be hunted down house to house and already protesters in Tripoli and other locations have disappeared and: > **[VOA - Voice of America English News](https://www.voanews.com/)** > > Accurate, objective news coverage from the U.S. and around the world. > [@](#): > > Separately, military officials on the nearby island nation of Malta report that two Libyan fighters jets landed there and their pilots defected, saying they had been ordered to attack protestors. > > In a sign of growing cracks within the government, several senior officials – including the justice minister and members of the Libyan mission to the United Nations – broke with Colonel Gadhafi. Libya’s deputy ambassador to the U.N., Ibrahim Dabbashi, called for the embattled leader to step down and said he should stand trial for war crimes. He accused regime of having “started genocide against the Libyan people.” In an interview with Al Jazeera English, Libya’s ambassador to the U.S., Ali Ojli condemned what he described as the “repression of protestors” and said involvement by the international community was critical to ending the crisis. > > There are also accounts of officials fleeing the country and a string of defections by Libyan ambassadors abroad. I would think that waiting for Ka-daffy to behave was not a realistic option. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/292 "2011-04-03T23:26:52Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > We’re not there to prevent genocide. We’re not there to protect civilians. We’re there because we don’t like Qaddaffi. All three, actually. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know why you keep injecting yourself into discussions I’m having with other people Kinda how a message board works, amigo. If you’re fulla shit, you can expect many, many people to call you on it, not just the one you’re directly addressing. If you want a private conversation, this isn’t the place. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/293 "2011-04-04T00:37:57Z")
But he’s on rock-solid ground. No question but that we are going about it differently than Bush would. Hard to argue with that. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/294 "2011-04-04T00:55:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > When a dictator says that the traitors would be hunted down house to house and already protesters in Tripoli and other locations have disappeared and: Killing civilians != Genocide. ["Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)Unless you’re going to allege that Khadaffi is/was trying to wipe out all Lybians (and not just those opposed to him) it’s not genocide. Horrible, and something you can argue the United States should stop; but not Genocide. Now were these fears to be realized, it _would_ be Genocide: > [@](#): > > [Says the man in hiding: “Some people here among the black African community tend to support the regime purely on the basis of wanting to survive. If the rebels win, they’re going to unleash their terror on black Africans.”](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f4fff59c-560e-11e0-8de9-00144feab49a.html#axzz1IVksv500) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/295 "2011-04-04T01:28:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But he’s on rock-solid ground. No question but that we are going about it differently than Bush would. Hard to argue with that. But **John** is implicitly claiming that the goals are essentially the same, the differences lying only in implementation. IOW it’s his trademark above-it-all, false-equivalence horseshit _once again_. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/296 "2011-04-04T01:54:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have seen many critics said that we acted too slow in Libya. > When a dictator says that the traitors would be hunted down house to house and already protesters in Tripoli and other locations have disappeared and: > > [VOA - Voice of America English News](http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/02/21/libyan-regime-under-siege-as-protests-escalate-2/) > > I would think that waiting for Ka-daffy to behave was not a realistic option. If we acted too slow in Libya, then we clearly can’t wait for Ghadafi to behave, can we? But Ghadafi “misbehaving” still is not reason enough to go into Libya. re: genocide: He’s not committing genocide. What started as a retaliation against dissent evolved into a game terrorizing citizens. He’ll take deflectors. This is about him staying in power. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/297 "2011-04-04T01:58:42Z")
sorry for the double post, but I just reread what I wrote. It’s not really a “game” about terrorizing citizens. It’s more like a panicked reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/298 "2011-04-04T02:01:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But **John** is implicitly claiming that the goals are essentially the same, the differences lying only in implementation. The goals are the same. The President of the United States has explicitly stated, “it is US policy that Qaddafi must go.” In what way is that different from Bush’s goal of removing Hussein? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/299 "2011-04-04T02:06:02Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Killing civilians != Genocide. > > ["Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)Unless you’re going to allege that Khadaffi is/was trying to wipe out all Lybians (and not just those opposed to him) it’s not genocide. Horrible, and something you can argue the United States should stop; but not Genocide. I was not really sure about the genocide bit and said so, however, the resolution doesn’t mention genocide either: > **[Libya: UN resolution on no-fly zone](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12783819)** > > Full text of UN resolution 1973 imposing a no fly-zone and other sanctions on Libya. > [@](#): > > Considering that the widespread and systematic attacks currently taking place in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya against the civilian population may amount to crimes against humanity, So it is because of the endangerment of the civilian population and for crimes against humanity. > [@furt](#): > > Now were these fears to be realized, it _would_ be Genocide: In the past I made the point that this was not good also, and it does enter into the reasons why I do want this to end with a truce. One has to add though that comparing what the rebels \*\*could \*\*had done with what the Libyan army was \*\*doing \*\*with planes and tanks against the population one could wonder why the possibility of the Africans getting killed would override the decision to intervene. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/300 "2011-04-04T02:23:15Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > The goals are the same. The President of the United States has explicitly stated, “it is US policy that Qaddafi must go.” In what way is that different from Bush’s goal of removing Hussein? Are you really having that much trouble keeping up, or are you suffering from FES (false-equivalence syndrome) too? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=16)