# Obama's Libyan Adventure-Will It End Badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/361 "2011-08-22T03:16:15Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > So the skeptics of the action, will they now retract? It is proof it is better to take this method than the madness the Americans have done in Iraq and Afghanistan. We shot hundreds of Tomahawk missiles at 1.4 million dollars apiece. We then went in with fighter aircraft instead of using the appropriate ground attack equipment. It was not a well organized event. All of this was done in a civil war where we have no control of the events or who we are backing. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/362 "2011-08-22T03:21:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > All of this was done in a civil war where we have no control of the events or who we are backing. Ya, it’s a bitch when you can’t even depose one tyrant and stick another on the proverbial throne. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/363 "2011-08-22T03:25:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We shot hundreds of Tomahawk missiles at 1.4 million dollars apiece. We then went in with fighter aircraft instead of using the appropriate ground attack equipment. It was not a well organized event. All of this was done in a civil war where we have no control of the events or who we are backing. I think the West has handled this the right way. One brigade of U.S. Marines could have ended this war at any time in the past six months, but the rebels just wanted air support and to do all the ground-fighting themselves. Which means the Libya that results from this will not be like Iraq, where almost everyone across the spectrum has a seething resentment against the foreign invaders. Instead, it will feel indebted to the West for its freedom. (Sure, anyone who lost a loved one to a NATO bomb might feel differently, but they’ll be a small minority, and all other war-damage will be blamed only on Libyans.) That gives us a potentially important ally in the MENA. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/364 "2011-08-22T03:37:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think the West has handled this the right way. One brigade of U.S. Marines could have ended this war at any time in the past six months, but the rebels just wanted air support and to do all the ground-fighting themselves. Which means the Libya that results from this will not be like Iraq, where almost everyone across the spectrum has a seething resentment against the foreign invaders. Instead, it will feel indebted to the West for its freedom. (Sure, anyone who lost a loved one to a NATO bomb might feel differently, but they’ll be a small minority, and all other war-damage will be blamed only on Libyans.) That gives us a potentially important ally in the MENA. We supported someone once in Afghanistan. It was the Taliban headed by Osama Bin Laden. I’m sure we got a hearty thank you for our efforts but what followed was anything but appreciation. It would be nice to think that democracy suddenly breaks out but we look at this region like it was a European country. Libya is not Poland. It is a feudal country with a completely different mindset. This was a country that cheered when the Pan Am bomber came home. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/365 "2011-08-22T04:21:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > How indispensable was NATO air strikes for the anti-Gadaffhi forces? Absolutely vital. Without NATO the rebels were dead 6 months ago. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/366 "2011-08-22T04:31:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We supported someone once in Afghanistan. It was the Taliban headed by Osama Bin Laden. I’m sure we got a hearty thank you for our efforts but what followed was anything but appreciation. > > It would be nice to think that democracy suddenly breaks out but we look at this region like it was a European country. Libya is not Poland. It is a feudal country with a completely different mindset. This was a country that cheered when the Pan Am bomber came home. Well, we know this revolution is neither jihadist nor Communist, because neither movement showed enough visibility, nor appears broadly popular. And there’s no military organization in Libya, on either side, strong enough to pull off a military coup or impose a military dictatorship. What other possibilities are there that are really scary? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/367 "2011-08-22T08:44:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We shot hundreds of Tomahawk missiles at 1.4 million dollars apiece. We then went in with fighter aircraft instead of using the appropriate ground attack equipment. It was not a well organized event. All of this was done in a civil war where we have no control of the events or who we are backing. And there will be greater return to America than the hatred and waste of the Iraq war crimes. I am not a military and I do not think you are a military, so I am content to hear the opinion of the revolutionaries of Nafusa who were very happy for the air support to their uprising. If you had controle, then of course it would be some American façade, a fake liberation like your Iraq war, and not a reality of liberation revolution. This is real revolution against a dictator, and so you can not control it or the events. America, France, all participating NATO members can be proud to have risked for liberty and revolution against a terrible dictator. To this, without trying to put them under the dead hands of American military commanders, they have won a lot of respect and love from Lybian revolutionaries. No thing is sure in life or revolution. They have given a chance to Lybians and Africans now for liberty, and that is a great thing. But some people, they can only complain they do not controle the things that can not be controlled, and they complain it is not certain what can not be certain. And this is because the man who led it is not of their narrow party. That is a sad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/368 "2011-08-22T08:49:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We supported someone once in Afghanistan. It was the Taliban headed by Osama Bin Laden. I’m sure we got a hearty thank you for our efforts but what followed was anything but appreciation. This is invented fictional history. Americans did not support the Talebens because they did not exist until the civil war of Afghanistan after the soviets left, and the Ben Laden did not lead the Talebens at all. > [@](#): > > It would be nice to think that democracy suddenly breaks out but we look at this region like it was a European country. Libya is not Poland. It is a feudal country with a completely different mindset. This was a country that cheered when the Pan Am bomber came home. Lybia is not a feudal country, it is sad to see the lies of a dictator repeated like that. It is true that democracy will not just happen in Lybia, but I do not think this person knows anything of Lybia. The cheering of the Meghrari - this is a stupid thing to hold against Lybia since the TV show was put on by the very dictator that is being ousted. It is a great hypocrisy to take and hold it against the people who are making a revolution against the man who made this show!! The dictator’s propaganda is proof against the people who are overthrowing him??!! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/369 "2011-08-22T13:49:53Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Lybia is not a feudal country . . . Well, it is a **tribal** country. That could pose problems. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/370 "2011-08-22T14:30:57Z")
From [Aljazeera’s Libya Live Blog:](http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/Libya) Statement of rebel leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil: > [@](#): > > "We would like to give great thanks to the international community who supported the Libyan people during their crisis and through the resolutions 1970 and 1973 prevented and the procedures taken to protect civilians prevented human catastrophes and massacres that were about to take place against the Libyan people. > > "We thank in particular, all the countries that provided all kinds of support from the birth of this revolution until the moment of victory. Who knows how long that gratitude will last. But, for the moment, it’s significant: Before, we had a country on the Mediterranean whose government was always going out of its way to rattle sabers at the West. And now it looks like we’ll have a government there that feels **grateful** to the West. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/371 "2011-08-22T14:38:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And now it looks like we’ll have a government there that feels **grateful** to the West. All I wonder is what spin will be fired up to take this win from Obama. Like [this](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/22/libya-intervention-looks-hazy-in-hindsight/) ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/372 "2011-08-22T14:45:59Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > All I wonder is what spin will be fired up to take this win from Obama. > > Like [this](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08/22/libya-intervention-looks-hazy-in-hindsight/) Wow, so the Libyan uprising is just disgruntled and pissed off Eastern Libyan clans allied with the Islamofascists to oust a (previously insane) leader who was fighting the “good fight” against Islamo-Nazism? Note:I love how they sum up the Arab Spring. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/373 "2011-08-22T14:49:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We supported someone once in Afghanistan. It was the Taliban headed by Osama Bin Laden. This was not long after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/374 "2011-08-22T15:05:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This was not long after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, right? :dubious: That was the **Jews,** silly! Don’t you remember what they were shouting? “Torah! Torah! Torah!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/375 "2011-08-22T15:11:26Z")
The US supported the mujahadeen (sp?) in Afghanistan against the Soviets. ObL was part of that organization. The Taliban was a creation of Pakistan post-Soviet pullout. Whether that has any meaningful parallels here is hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/376 "2011-08-22T15:12:23Z")
I wonder if **ralph** is coming back. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/377 "2011-08-22T15:15:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The US supported the mujahadeen (sp?) in Afghanistan against the Soviets. ObL was part of that organization. The Taliban was a creation of Pakistan post-Soviet pullout. > > Whether that has any meaningful parallels here is hard to say. Probably not. Libya’s Muslim Brotherhood or its equivalent was involved in this revolution, but not prominently enough to take it over. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/378 "2011-08-22T16:11:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The US supported the mujahadeen (sp?) in Afghanistan against the Soviets. ObL was part of that organization. The Taliban was a creation of Pakistan post-Soviet pullout. > > Whether that has any meaningful parallels here is hard to say. The mujahidine were not one group but many. I think that there is a great difference between a revolution of six months fighitng against a narrow dictatorship and a decade of war against the soviets. And a great difference between the Afghanistan which was so poor and landlocked, and Lybia which could be very rich and is on the mediterranean. Of course there are very large challenges, but the old regime was so evil that it will be hard to be worse. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/379 "2011-08-23T00:07:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We shot hundreds of Tomahawk missiles at 1.4 million dollars apiece. We then went in with fighter aircraft instead of using the appropriate ground attack equipment. It was not a well organized event. Or maybe it _was_, based on results. People like you would have been calling for Obama’s impeachment if he’d sent ground forces “into harm’s way”, of course :dubious: Your criticism of him at this point is laughably spiteful. > [@](#): > > All of this was done in a civil war where we have no control of the events or who we are backing. A. You don’t usually have control of the events in any war, and B. Backing somebody \*means \*you aren’t controlling them. This is a good thing for democracy, humanity, and the US too. Try to be happy about it and to congratulate those who brought it about - if you can force yourself, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/380 "2011-08-23T00:19:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or maybe it _was_, based on results. I see no reason to retract my opinion that the early direct involvement of the U.S., and the later tangential involvement of the U.S. via NATO, was wrong. Libya was none of our business, and the fact that the rebels have won does not change that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=20)