# Obama's Libyan Adventure-Will It End Badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/381 "2011-08-23T00:20:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, we know this revolution is neither jihadist nor Communist, because neither movement showed enough visibility, nor appears broadly popular. And there’s no military organization in Libya, on either side, strong enough to pull off a military coup or impose a military dictatorship. What other possibilities are there that are really scary? I dunno. I just don’t know who we supported in this. We sent in the cavalry in Kosovo and there was a pretty clear mission statement. It’s not about Obama (as this thread suggests). This was a loosely organized NATO party and a bit of a hot potato at that. It would be nice if democracy and peace breaks out in this region for a host of reasons. Here’s hoping it does. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/382 "2011-08-23T00:24:19Z")
Maybe the Libyan rebels will be nice folks…maybe not. The real question is: what happens to the stockpiles of weapons belonging to the (former) Libyan army? Suppose it gets sent to Hezbollah or the Taliban? That would not be good. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/383 "2011-08-23T00:29:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or maybe it _was_, based on results. People like you would have been calling for Obama’s impeachment if he’d sent ground forces “into harm’s way”, of course :dubious: Your criticism of him at this point is laughably spiteful.A. You don’t usually have control of the events in any war, and B. Backing somebody \*means \*you aren’t controlling them. Ah, so you’re a psychic and know what other people think. Great, then you know what I’m thinking about you now. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > This is a good thing for democracy, humanity, and the US too. Try to be happy about it and to congratulate those who brought it about - if you can force yourself, that is. This isn’t anything but a civil war. There are a number of them going on in the region. How should we proceed with Syria and Egypt and other such countries? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/384 "2011-08-23T00:29:27Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Libya was none of our business, and the fact that the rebels have won does not change that. We are all humans. Humanity _is_ our business. More specifically, supporting the development of democracy is a responsibility of democracies. Our responsibilities do not end at our own borders; that attitude has been just as unrealistic as it is irresponsible for generations now. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/385 "2011-08-23T00:33:30Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The real question is: what happens to the stockpiles of weapons belonging to the (former) Libyan army? Suppose it gets sent to Hezbollah or the Taliban? > That would not be good. :rolleyes: And why would they do that? Why presume they are more likely than any other random nation to do that? As for what will happen, presumably they’ll keep the weapons for their army. If anything they are going to have a shortage thanks to all the destroyed and expended ammo and equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/386 "2011-08-23T00:34:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Maybe the Libyan rebels will be nice folks..maybe not. > The real question is: what happens to the stockpiles of weapons belonging to the (former) Libyan army? Suppose it gets sent to Hezbollah or the Taliban? > That would not be good. What do the Libyan rebels have in common with the Taliban or Hezbollah that would make them want to give them weapons? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/387 "2011-08-23T00:34:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Ah, so you’re a psychic and know what other people think. Nope. Just pointing out the way your sour-grapes Democrat-denigrating act comes across. I could also point out how childish your retort to it comes across, too, if I thought it would make any difference. > [@](#): > > This isn’t anything but a civil war. Who ever said it wasn’t? Now, if we’d sent ground troops in, like you (now) say NATO should have done, then it would be something different. If we’d tried to “control” the rebellion, like you (now) say you regret we didn’t, it would have been something \*completely \*different. > [@](#): > > How should we proceed with Syria and Egypt and other such countries? Egypt \*already \*took care of their own dictator, but didn’t need outside help because he didn’t/couldn’t fight back much. Perhaps you didn’t hear. Now the Syrians are working on their own, as you also maybe didn’t hear. How about we use a proven strategy there, too? Sound reasonable to you? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/388 "2011-08-23T00:37:42Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The real question is: what happens to the stockpiles of weapons belonging to the (former) Libyan army? Most of it is already in the hands of the TNC army, which, as you might have surmised, is largely \*composed \*of the (former) Libyan army, whose defecting members brought their armaments with them. There are plenty more weapons that were quietly transferred to them by NATO and Arab allies, too, but the world is awash with that stuff already. > [@](#): > > Suppose it gets sent to Hezbollah or the Taliban? > That would not be good. Suppose you tell us why that would happen? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/389 "2011-08-23T00:40:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We are all humans. Humanity _is_ our business. More specifically, supporting the development of democracy is a responsibility of democracies. I see no indication that we are supporting democracy in Libya; we are merely supporting the removal of Qaddaffi. I’ve been around the block once or twice, bub, I’ve seen how the United States has supported “democracy” in such places as Vietnam, Nicaragua, and Iraq. > [@](#): > > Our responsibilities do not end at our own borders; that attitude has been just as unrealistic as it is irresponsible for generations now. So, Syria next? Zimbabwe? China? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/390 "2011-08-23T01:06:41Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I see no indication that we are supporting democracy in Libya; we are merely supporting the removal of Qaddaffi. A precondition for democracy, at any rate. And the TNC has said it wants UN-supervised elections within 8 months. > [@Frank](#): > > I’ve been around the block once or twice, bub, I’ve seen how the United States has supported “democracy” in such places as Vietnam, Nicaragua, and Iraq. One important difference is that in Libya we’re clearly supporting the more popular side. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/391 "2011-08-23T01:14:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I see no reason to retract my opinion that the early direct involvement of the U.S., and the later tangential involvement of the U.S. via NATO, was wrong. Libya was none of our business, and the fact that the rebels have won does not change that. I am far more pragmatic than this-if something helps remove an anti-American dictator who murders his own citizens with minimal American casualties than why not? If it works, its fine with me. I’m annoyed by how neo-isolationist most of the Tea Party is-they’re returning to a almost pre-Pearl Harbour mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/392 "2011-08-23T01:19:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I’m annoyed by how neo-isolationist most of the Tea Party is-they’re returning to a almost pre-Pearl Harbour mentality. They’re not really returning to anything. Throughout the Bush years, there were a lot of Republicans who only wanted to invade other countries so they could smash them and then go back to ignoring the rest of the world. Bush and some of his inner circle apparently thought you could really spread democracy through war that way, but a lot of the people who voted for him just wanted to kill their enemies and get back to domestic issues forever. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/393 "2011-08-23T02:23:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nope. Just pointing out the way your sour-grapes Democrat-denigrating act comes across. I could also point out how childish your retort to it comes across, too, if I thought it would make any difference. Putting words in other people’s mouths is not a debate point. It’s your personal bullshit bias projected on others. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Egypt \*already \*took care of their own dictator, but didn’t need outside help because he didn’t/couldn’t fight back much. Perhaps you didn’t hear. Now the Syrians are working on their own, as you also maybe didn’t hear. How about we use a proven strategy there, too? Sound reasonable to you? And what political strategy would that be again? they’re all civil wars. Why did we go into Libya? Seriously, what was the criteria? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/394 "2011-08-23T02:39:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And what political strategy would that be again? they’re all civil wars. Why did we go into Libya? Seriously, what was the criteria? We didn’t like Qaddafi and wanted to see him gone? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/395 "2011-08-23T11:07:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Putting words in other people’s mouths is not a debate point. It’s your personal bullshit bias projected on others. I note you’re not disagreeing or clarifying. :dubious: > [@](#): > > And what political strategy would that be again? Supporting the democratically-oriented insurgency. > [@](#): > > they’re all civil wars. Perhaps you could start by explaining why you think that is a meaningful point of some kind. > [@](#): > > Why did we go into Libya? Seriously, what was the criteria? You really haven’t been paying attention at all, have you? First, what makes you think we’re “into” Libya? Second, did you really not know that Khadafy was on the verge of destroying the insurgency in Benghazi and that NATO then made the decision to give them the means to defend themselves against a bloodbath? Did you really not hear about that, even on Fox? If so, that would explain why you weren’t aware that the insurgency became able to overthrow Khadafy, and that supporting it was therefore good policy, even for US interests? The President you despise took an opening and succeeded when the Presidents you admire did not. Fact. **Frank** , you’ve been wrong all along, and for all the wrong reasons. Consistency in staying wrong is not a virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/396 "2011-08-23T13:12:26Z")
I guess a Ghadaffi being ousted from Libya just isn’t fun enough without plane-loads of flag-draped coffin’s to cry over. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/397 "2011-08-23T15:33:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We are all humans. Humanity _is_ our business. More specifically, supporting the development of democracy is a responsibility of democracies. > > Our responsibilities do not end at our own borders; that attitude has been just as unrealistic as it is irresponsible for generations now. What assurances do you have that a democracy will arise? They have no political parties . Nor do they have an educated class that can run the country. There will be a contentious and dangerous period that will follow ,if Kadaffy is gone. They had no voting or political parties. Kadafffy has been in charge over 40 years. I saw an interview with some of the rebels who think tribalism will return. There are no national structures in place. Local rivals will want to assume the power ad control the oil. By the way, our borders are where our responsibilities end. We have no treaty with Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/398 "2011-08-23T15:50:26Z")
Nothing wrong with tribalism. If the country splinters into a bunch of satellites, so what? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/399 "2011-08-23T15:56:17Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > What assurances do you have that a democracy will arise? No assurancces of course. > [@](#): > > Nor do they have an educated class that can run the country. That is completely not true. Libya has many educated cadres. They are not living in caves, it is not Afghanistan, whatever superficialities Americans like to promote. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/400 "2011-08-23T16:07:35Z")
Now Al Jazeera has camera inside. They are in fact inside, in the middle of the compound. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=21)