# Obama's Libyan Adventure-Will It End Badly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628 "2011-03-22T17:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/41 "2011-03-23T17:38:19Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Damn Obama for invading Iraq back in 2003! Say this for those Kenyans - they’re organized. Otherwise they could never travel through time and pull off several wars at once. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/42 "2011-03-23T17:38:29Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Yes, the war in Libya will end badly. > > So will his other wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also will end badly. > > Running 3 wars, esp in the Middle East, is really too much for any Community Organizer to handle. Maybe political commentary is to much for some posters to handle? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/43 "2011-03-23T17:46:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, yeah, it can’t override the constitution. And I assume the other part is, for example, if a NATO country is attacked, we are obligated to consider that an attack on the US and help out if asked. > > … > > (2) (b) only authorizes activity already happening prior to enactment of this act in 1973. It doesn’t authorize future military action just because the UN approves it. > > At least, that’s my take. Am I wrong? No. I read it as treaties established before 1973, but now I believe you’re reading is correct. (ie, all that language I left out translates to “activities” before 1973). If that’s right, then I’m still perplexed. Let’s see if we can work through this… How does it jive with WPR sec 8 (d)(1) re: pre-1973 treaties. Let’s use your NATO example. It’s a (pre-1973) treaty that says if a member state is attacked, then all members can/must respond. Does the President need to wait for statutory approval from Congress now (after 1973)? I’m guessing by your comments that you think not. But why? Shouldn’t the WPR, as a later in time statute, override since the President is limited to the three scenarios in Sec 2(c). The same example can be applied to the UN treaty. Isn’t the President obligated to execute valid US law/treaties, and Libya resolution 1973 is a valid UN resolution? Doesn’t the WPR recognize/acquiesce this in (d)(1)? Or more bluntly, why NATO treaty, and not the UN treaty? ---
**Author:** ![Linear\_Crack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Linear\_Crack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linear_Crack)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/44 "2011-03-23T18:53:58Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I think so. > First, we have no idea what we are supporting. For all we know, we might have a new Iran style regime in Libya. Good question. Are we supporting the insurgency, protecting the population in general from pro-Gadhafi forces, or just keeping the NFZ clear? Or maybe…its the OIL! And who exactly are these [insurgents](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/24/al-qaeda-offers-aid-to-rebels-in-libya/)? Are they a majority or minority? Did the US side with them because Gadhafi is darker of two evils? > [@](#): > > Second, it is impossible to bomb targets without killing innocent people. However, its hard to find any news reports about civilian casualties from the US missles/bombing runs in Lybia. Weird huh? > [@](#): > > Third, Russia and China will use this to attack the USA. I’m assume you mean verbally. And yes, this had already occurred. > [@](#): > > For a guy who denounced Bush for jumping into wars, Obama is pretty careless-he didn’t bother to consult Congress-he just decided that attacking Ghadafi was the thing to do. All War Powers discussions aside, and considering his early wavering on the matter, I think obama’s decision to get involved was purely political. > [@](#): > > BTW, Russia and Bolivia have suggested that Obama return his Nobel Peace Prize-what do you think? That money was spent on smokes and golf balls months ago. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/45 "2011-03-23T19:09:09Z")
> [@Linear\_Crack](#): > > All War Powers discussions aside, and considering his early wavering on the matter, I think obama’s decision to get involved was purely political. I disagree. His entire working career consists of being a community organizer, guest lecturer, and brief term as a senator. None of these jobs come with any real responsibility or prepared him for a world stage. He’s never been held to account for anything and it shows. He’s not leading, he’s following. He’s an ideologue without the skill-sets necessary to pull it off. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/46 "2011-03-23T19:22:46Z")
Gee. And here I thought that this was a multinational effort mandated by the UN Security Council. I had no idea it was Obama acting alone. What a scoundrel. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/47 "2011-03-23T19:33:51Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Gee. And here I thought that this was a multinational effort mandated by the UN Security Council. I had no idea it was Obama acting alone. What a scoundrel. There are no UN troops involved. It’s basically a NATO operation without any leadership. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/48 "2011-03-23T22:14:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not necessarily. Unless we have grounds troops in there to preserve order, there is going to be civil war(s) going on when MK is gone. Actually, there might be civil war(s) even if we do have ground troops. > > Did we learn nothing from Iraq? I agree, but if we get out before the civil war goes full scale we can declare victory. But you’re right about what will happen, and that will be a new humanitarian crisis to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/49 "2011-03-23T23:22:39Z")
[The extra strategy has been clarified with mud](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/03/president-obama-redefines-the-term-exit-strategy.html). At least Al Qaida approves of the conflict. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/50 "2011-03-23T23:29:21Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > BTW, Russia and Bolivia have suggested that Obama return his Nobel Peace Prize-what do you think? Regarding this last point, I’m still waiting for a reason explaining why he got it. As for the fact that we don’t know what kind of regime will replace Kadhafi : 1. It can hardly be worst 2. At the least, the population is likely to be favorably disposed towards countries that helped them _at their insistent request_ 3. Hi, Kadhafi ! ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/51 "2011-03-23T23:32:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Shit, if Bolivia is pissed whatever shall we do? Actually, that’s the only point mentioned by the OP that annoys me, because I like Bolivia and Evo Morales. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/52 "2011-03-23T23:33:17Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Yes, the war in Libya will end badly. > > So will his other wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also will end badly. > > Running 3 wars, esp in the Middle East, is really too much for any Community Organizer to handle. :rolleyes: I daresay Obama can do anything FDR could do (and play basketball, too). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/53 "2011-03-23T23:35:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Shit, if Bolivia is pissed whatever shall we do? :eek: Anything, man, **anything!** (The Colombian powder, it is good and full-bodied, but it just does not have that _je ne sais quoi._ As for the Peruvian, less said the better.) ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/54 "2011-03-23T23:41:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :eek: Anything, man, **anything!** (The Colombian powder, it is good and full-bodied, but it just does not have that _je ne sais quoi._ As for the Peruvian, less said the better.) Take that back!! Don’t mess with my country’s powder!!! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/55 "2011-03-23T23:58:50Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Regarding this last point, I’m still waiting for a reason explaining why he got it. > > As for the fact that we don’t know what kind of regime will replace Kadhafi : > > 1. It can hardly be worst > > 2. At the least, the population is likely to be favorably disposed towards countries that helped them _at their insistent request_ > > 3. Hi, Kadhafi ! win ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/56 "2011-03-24T00:17:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > win That’s what they said about the Shah of iran.. 4 millionn deaths later, we had Ahmadhdinajad. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/57 "2011-03-24T00:20:56Z")
Isn’t that the exact _opposite_ of this situation, **ralph124c**? In Iran, the U.S. helped overthrow a democratically elected prime minister to bring back the Shah, who was not popular with the people (or the future revolutionaries) but was supposed to be more amenable to U.S. interests. Ghadafi has been the dictator of Libya for 40 years and the U.S. and its allies are supporting a revolution against him. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/58 "2011-03-24T00:35:46Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > No. I read it as treaties established before 1973, but now I believe you’re reading is correct. (ie, all that language I left out translates to “activities” before 1973). > > If that’s right, then I’m still perplexed. Let’s see if we can work through this… > > How does it jive with WPR sec 8 (d)(1) re: pre-1973 treaties. Let’s use your NATO example. It’s a (pre-1973) treaty that says if a member state is attacked, then all members can/must respond. Does the President need to wait for statutory approval from Congress now (after 1973)? I’m guessing by your comments that you think not. But why? Shouldn’t the WPR, as a later in time statute, override since the President is limited to the three scenarios in Sec 2(c). The same example can be applied to the UN treaty. Isn’t the President obligated to execute valid US law/treaties, and Libya resolution 1973 is a valid UN resolution? Doesn’t the WPR recognize/acquiesce this in (d)(1)? Or more bluntly, why NATO treaty, and not the UN treaty? I think that the NATO defense example jives OK because Congress has did ratify that treaty-- they had their say up front. Congress is saying, in effect, that the prez can help out Great Britain or Italy w/o Congressional approval, but not Russia, China or Khazakstan. Anything outside of NATO assistance (or other treaties they ratified) has to be approved by Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/59 "2011-03-24T00:37:43Z")
Well, please, someone tell me just what result would qualify as ending well. If we had any positive experience in military actions against societies that were not actually attacing our people, and our nation (as opposed to our politics, or our economic interests) I would be willing to entertain the possibility that this might not end badly. My fear is, like Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, it isn’t going to end at all. Tris ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628/60 "2011-03-24T00:41:33Z")
All’s well that ends well. Or is it: All’s well that ends…? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-libyan-adventure-will-it-end-badly/575628.md?page=4)