# Obama's speech in the ME: will it make a difference? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741 "2009-06-04T19:49:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/21 "2009-06-05T00:43:12Z")
The word “concession” is value neutral. It refers to someone giving up/stopping something that they would prefer to have/do. I understand that “It’s not really a concession because I think they should give it up!” is a meme that’s been going around the Dope recently, but it’s silly. Conceding something has nothing to do with any objective right of the person making the concession, but only their lack of uncoerced desire to give it up, or lack thereof. Even if we look at a hostage taker, if the police ask him to give up some of his hostages, they are asking him to make concessions. That doesn’t mean that he had a right to hold people at gunpoint. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/22 "2009-06-05T00:51:05Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > To what concessions are you referring? If it is the removal of Israeli settlements, that hardly seems like making a concession. 1. The Palestinians still have not lived up to the _last_ agreement they made; nonetheless, 2. The administration has made a new demand of the Irealis – that there be no new building within long-existing settlements – but 3. the administration has made no demands whatsoever of the Palestinians. I call that “unilateral concessions.” > [@](#): > > What country did you have in mind? I assume Egypt was chosen simply because it has the largest Arab population. There is no perfect solution, and I wasn’t necessarily saying that there was one. That’s the devil of things like foreign policy with a vast, disparate region: ofthen there is no “right answer.” Anything you do will piss somebody off. But if you’re looking for Arab countries that are headed in the right direction on democracy/human rights (while still having far to go) Kuwait would be good choice. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/23 "2009-06-05T00:53:33Z")
I’d go with Turkey, but that’s just me. As you say, there is no optimal choice. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/24 "2009-06-05T01:13:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > 1. The administration has made a new demand of the Irealis – that there be no new building within long-existing settlements Is it a new demand? There seems to be some [disagreement about whether Israel was already obligated to freeze settlement growth](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/world/middleeast/04israel.html): > [@](#): > > (New York Times) > > The Israeli officials said that repeated discussions with Bush officials starting in late 2002 resulted in agreement that housing could be built within the boundaries of certain settlement blocks as long as no new land was expropriated, no special economic incentives were offered to move to settlements and no new settlements were built. […] > > When Israel signed on to the so-called road map for a two-state solution in 2003, with a provision that says its government “freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements),” the officials said, it did so after a detailed discussion with Bush administration officials that laid out those explicit exceptions. > > But a former senior official in the Bush administration disagreed, calling the Israeli characterization “an overstatement.” > > “There was never an agreement to accept natural growth,” the official said Tuesday, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the matter. “There was an effort to explore what natural growth would mean, but we weren’t able to reach agreement on that.” ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/25 "2009-06-05T01:19:17Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Plenty new. Name me one attempt in the last 100 years by a US president, or leader of any Western nation, to directly address the Arab on his own soil, who recognized the cultural importance of the square foot he was adressing him from, and who did it with references to the Arab’s own new and distant culture. You’re right. It was good for the President to invoke the long history of Egypt, and said how he respected it, while simultanously appealing to the vast numbers of Arab youth by talking about expanding student visas and how the future was in their hands. He even used Arabic words. That was great. [Man, it’s for sure Bush would never do any of that stuff.](http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/gwbushworldeconomicforum2008.htm) Obama’s was a good speech, but let’s not get carried away with this “nobody else has even tried!” ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/26 "2009-06-05T01:36:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’d go with Turkey, but that’s just me. As you say, there is no optimal choice. It’s obviously a model for a Muslim Middle-Eastern democracy, but it’s not Arab, unfortunately, and I think that probably makes a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/27 "2009-06-05T02:04:12Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > What country did you have in mind? I assume Egypt was chosen simply because it has the largest Arab population. In May Politico ran an article on the White House’s decision to give the speech in Egypt: [http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22272.html](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22272.html) [QUOTE=David Cloud for Politico] The White House announced Friday that Obama will make his long-promised speech to the Muslim world June 4 in Egypt because of that nation’s central role in the region. Obama is in effect acknowledging Egypt’s view of itself as the leader of the Arab world and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak’s own self-image as America’s vital ally—a recognition status that the Bush administration never seemed willing to extend. As a result, Mubarak shut himself off from Washington for long-stretches of the Bush administration. “If Obama was going to go to an Arab country, it had to be Egypt if he wanted to bring them back into the game,” said Haleh Esfandiari, the director of Middle East programs at the Wilson Center, a Washington think tank. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/28 "2009-06-05T03:18:35Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Talk is cheap. It is 'better to jaw-jaw than to war-war. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/29 "2009-06-05T03:29:42Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > It is 'better to jaw-jaw than to war-war. True, but there’s the central fact: The United States isn’t located in the Middle East. The USA can bring all the pressure to bear it wants, and it has a lot to bring. But if the solution is politically impossible in Israel and in the Palestinian territories, there’s no solution. It’s certainly possible the Obama administration could improve relations between the USA and most of the Muslim states. That’d be fantastic. He’s not going to do it just by giving speeches but he certainly has the savoir faire to do what needs doing. But asking him to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just a ridiculous expectation, and it was ridiculous to expect Bush to do it, ridiculous to expect Clinton to do it. It’s great that the USA has put some honest effort into brokering a peace deal but neither Barack Obama nor any other President can make the Israelis and Palestinians comne to terms under the current circumstances or any other circumstances that could conceivably be in place in the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/30 "2009-06-05T04:25:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > True, but there’s the central fact: > > The United States isn’t located in the Middle East. I’m not arguing your point per se, but the US is present in the Middle East. XXk troops in Afghanistan and XXXk troops in Iraq. Not including our ever present (air/naval) presence. Not including the ME notion that the US always plays a role. The question is, is it for good, or bad. Who do they trust. To me, this is a message from Obama that we are your friends, not your enemies. And a message from OBL that, don’t be fooled, they are always our enemies, not our friends (same shit, different suit). An Information war. Different and apart from a diplomatic (lawyers), military (guns), or economic (money) war. All which are fought at the same time. Yes, I simplify, but even though it’s just talk, it’s quite effective, and certainly necessary to win. The message that needs to get across to the average Muslim is…Who is going to make their life better more? Who is on their side really? Who knows what they really need/want, ect. It would be interesting to see some papers from different ME countries to see how they report the President’s name. Is it US President Obama? or US President Barack Hussein Obama? That alone would be very telling of the message they want to convey (or not convey). ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/31 "2009-06-05T05:46:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If so, then Obama’s speech is the right approach: Mend fences by telling them we appreciate the brilliance of their civilization and culture. In other words, lie to them. Lol! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/32 "2009-06-05T06:58:00Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > In other words, lie to them. Lol! If it helps mend fences and costs us nothing, why not ? And America’s present unwillingness to grant respect to anything outside it’s borders is hardly something to be proud of; America’s self absorption is one of it’s defects. The ‘LOL’ is on us. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/33 "2009-06-05T07:35:09Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Similarly, it’s good to speak of democracy and human rights and religious freedom … but when you choose to honor Egypt as being the state where you give that speech it’s gotta make the true Arab reformers wonder if you aren’t, like so many other US presidents, talking but not walking Middle-East democracy. We need to find ways to make rhetoric match policy. On the other hand, he directly challenged Mubarak during the speech. He specifically mentioned the Copts in Egypt as an oppressed group deserving of protection, which was a direct slap at Mubarak. He also went on about democratic governments that are repressive, which to me (and some others I have spoken to) sounded like another dig at Mubarak. Obama’s no dummy; he is aware of Egypt’s fairly abysmal human rights record and how that affects the credibility of his talk, and he took steps to rectify that by not exempting his host from direct and fairly blunt criticism. I also think he did a lot to pull the rug out from right-wing critics. He was very smart to call Holocaust deniers ignorant and hateful, and to say the US’s bond with Israel was unbreakable \*before \*engaging in any tough talk toward Israel; and also in saying that the Arabs also have responsibilities (and not just grievances). Also, emphasizing that his first job is to protect US citizens was smart. You could see which parts of the speech were aimed at a domestic audience. IMO he did a really good job of saying what the Muslims needed to hear while not giving ammo to (rational) conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/34 "2009-06-05T10:42:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The word “concession” is value neutral. It refers to someone giving up/stopping something that they would prefer to have/do. > > I understand that “It’s not really a concession because I think they should give it up!” is a meme that’s been going around the Dope recently, but it’s silly. Conceding something has nothing to do with any objective right of the person making the concession, but only their lack of uncoerced desire to give it up, or lack thereof. > > Even if we look at a hostage taker, if the police ask him to give up some of his hostages, they are asking him to make concessions. That doesn’t mean that he had a right to hold people at gunpoint. Why is it that I always find there are a few people on this board that are VERY well versed in why Israel is right, jus tthe same why the Scientologists are very well versed in their “religion” If you view stopping settlements as a “concession” then how do you think Palestinians view the continued expansion of the settlements? I guess they have no right at all to call it an incitement, or antagonism right - after all, Israel is always more “right” than those stinking terrorist Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/35 "2009-06-05T13:07:51Z")
Here’s the take on the speech by an upper middle class moroccan woman I know: > [@ameena](#): > > As most Arabs I’ve watched the President’s speech and was happy to notice the change, at least in words, of an American President towards Islam and the Muslim world. Now we’re waiting for some action especially as regards the Palestinian problem. A problem which is at the origin of all tensions between the Muslim /Arab world and the West, especially the nations that have always and unconditionally helped and supported Israel in its atrocious massacres of the Palestinians. Alqaida and what the west name Muslim extremism is but a reaction to what is happening in Palestine, Our Palestine; > > It’s not true that what is happening in the Middle East is a problem of hatred, mistrust, and rejection of the OTHER, it’s a problem of occupation. I’m deeply convinced that Arabs and Jews can live in peace and harmony, as the’ve always done, if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders and accepts that the palestinian refugees come back to their home country. > > We are conscious that the mission of the President Obama isn’t easy, but we’d like to see at least one of the American presidents to be fair and admit the truth: Israel is an occupying, racist country. And this occupation should end. And as America has always helped and assisted Israel, America has the duty to see things as they are and force Israel, as it did with Iraq when it occupied Koweit, to leave all occupied land; it’s only then that we’ll view this great nation as a one that defends the values it pretends to defend….. > > I hope that President Obama will succeed in installing peace in Palestine, and my dream is to see the end of the Palestinian/Israeli problem! It’s anecdotal evidence but it’s pretty representative of the world view of many arabs. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/36 "2009-06-05T13:15:06Z")
It was a good speech, but still nothing more than a speech. If it isn’t followed up with concrete actions, it will be forgotten in two months. Unfortunately, I’m not convinced that Obama can pressure the Israeli’s to take even the most basic step towards peace by stopping the growth of settlements in the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/37 "2009-06-05T13:39:25Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > True, but there’s the central fact: > > The United States isn’t located in the Middle East. > > The USA can bring all the pressure to bear it wants, and it has a lot to bring. But if the solution is politically impossible in Israel and in the Palestinian territories, there’s no solution. Very insightful :rolleyes: > [@RickJay](#): > > It’s certainly possible the Obama administration could improve relations between the USA and most of the Muslim states. That’d be fantastic. He’s not going to do it just by giving speeches but he certainly has the savoir faire to do what needs doing. But asking him to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just a ridiculous expectation, and it was ridiculous to expect Bush to do it, ridiculous to expect Clinton to do it. It’s great that the USA has put some honest effort into brokering a peace deal but neither Barack Obama nor any other President can make the Israelis and Palestinians comne to terms under the current circumstances or any other circumstances that could conceivably be in place in the foreseeable future. There is nothing ridiculous about the US trying to stop it’s largest foreign aid recipient from launching rockets at refugee camps, or protecting stable democratically elected governments from terrorists. Especially since this issue is such a prominent stain on our foreign policy for approximately 20% of the people on this planet. And no one said Obama’s going to MAKE any side do anything, and I don’t think even you believe talking for one hour in a Cairo university is all he’s going to do about this issue. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/38 "2009-06-05T13:45:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But asking him to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just a ridiculous expectation, and it was ridiculous to expect Bush to do it, ridiculous to expect Clinton to do it. Why? Carter was able to resolve the Israeli-Egyptian conflict. All it requires is that both sides be sick enough of the conflict that a settlement does not appear even worse to them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/39 "2009-06-05T13:54:14Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > “concession” And this is why playing politics with the language itself become sort of… silly. Yes, for centuries now the English language has been conspiring against your politics by having denotations that you do not like. Words have entered common usage with agreed upon definitions simply to piss you off. Your war against the meaning of words is noble and well thought out, and the fact that folks most cruelly point out to you that you don’t understand the definition of a word just shows that they might as well be Scientologists. Only Scientologists own dictionaries. True story. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741/40 "2009-06-05T14:00:43Z")
> [@treis](#): > > It was a good speech, but still nothing more than a speech. If it isn’t followed up with concrete actions, it will be forgotten in two months. Unfortunately, I’m not convinced that Obama can pressure the Israeli’s to take even the most basic step towards peace by stopping the growth of settlements in the West Bank. It’s all about money. The sides involved in this conflict all want money. Egypt extorts uncle Sam Arab leaders use the conflict to distract their people (and to make them think favorably of their countries compared to Palestine) Compensation for refugees is also not agreed upon. Bottom line, it all boils down to a legendary haggling session between arabs and their cousins. A really vigourous haggling session, with children dying and stuff [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-speech-in-the-me-will-it-make-a-difference/498741.md?page=3)