Obama's Trillion-$ Public Works: Graft city?

I suppose I just don’t believe that there is a desperate need for fixing and replacing infrastructure. I suspect it’s been deferred, but that the projects that will be undertaken are niceties, not necessities. Again, I just don’t think there’s generally a risk of rotting melons.

Unless the infrastructure is desperate in nature, I don’t think this works. More like borrowing money for new boobs.

No, I mean the hundreds of billions of dollars being taken from the pockets of Americans and American businesses to distribute as the government sees fit.

While part of the problem is that the government spends beyond its means, I think that an even bigger problem is that citizens are spending beyond their means. Savings rates have been at ridiculously low rates. Consumption has become a metaphor for wealth. Thus, the desire to increase credit so that citizens can continue to consume. Production is true wealth; consumption is an illusory replacement.

And damnit, now we’re in GD. I won’t lie, I hate the much higher standard of citation required here. I’m pretty good at stating what I think; I’m much poorer at backing it up with citation. I know that’s inviting a shot or two, but let it be said.

There are so many problems with infrastructure spending as a stimulus that it’s difficult to know where to begin. As for corruption, don’t forget that a trillion dollars in infrastructure spending all at once is going to stretch thin the ranks of the people doing the oversight. Also, the need to get the money out fast probably means fast-tracked bid/tender/approval processes. The Tony Rezkos of the world are going to make out like bandits.

Another form of corruption which is even more important is that the money will undoubtedly be allocated based on political pull and deal-making rather than where it will do the most good for the country. All the little piggies are lining the their noses up to the trough already. The ‘stimulus’ bill is going to be rewritten several times as it goes from body to body. Which one of those versions is the efficient one? Can all of them be equally efficient? The answer is that none of them are going to be efficient. Any plan to spend a trillion dollars, cobbled up in a few week’s time by 535 laymen in a rush, is going to be a mess.

Then there’s the problem that doing all this at once is going to bid up the price of raw materials and labor. When you’ve got 100 bridges being built at one time, you get one price for steel If 10,000 of them are being built, you’ll get quite another price.

And for those firms that have specialized skills in high demand by all the infrastructure projects (and there are quite a few of these), they are going to be in a position where they can simply bid high, because there will be high demand for their services. If your job requires an extremely large crane or gigantic earth moving equipment, be prepared to pay top dollar for it.

If they start 1 trillion in infrastructure projects, you can expect to pay probably double that if you want to actually complete the projects that were started, because a lot of them will go way over budget.

Then there’s the problem that always vexes Keynesians - knowing how to time the stimulus. This recession has already been going on for 12 months, and current forecasts are for the economy to start growing slightly again in Q2 09. The stimulus money will just be trickling into the economy around then - Obama’s office says most of the stimulus money will be into the economy by Q3 2010 - a year and a bit after the recession is already predicted to be over.

This same thing happened with Bush’s tax cuts. The economy looked bad in 2000, and Bush campaigned on tax cuts, and got them. But by the time they were implemented, the economy was already growing again at a decent pace, so the tax cuts wound up contributing to a boom instead of ending a recession. That’s even more likely to happen with infrastructure, because it takes so long to get the money into play.

The next problem is that spending a trillion bucks is very hard to do in the short term. The infrastructure projects ‘ready to go’ don’t amount to more than 100-200 billion, and even those would still have to undergo a long period of hiring, training, surveying, architecting, etc before you could hire large numbers of workers. The first year of the stimulus money therefore is likely to be spent giving money to a small number of fairly wealthy people who are already employed, thus bidding up their salaries. That would be civil engineers, mechanical engineers, architects, lawyers, money managers, geologists, and the like. They’ll be doing all the heavy lifting before these projects break ground.

Then there’s the additional problem that the workers that need jobs are not really employable in most infrastructure projects. There’s really not a lot of use for a retail sales clerk on a bridge construction crew. Even among the trades, the ones that are hurting were the ones in the home construction business. Some of those guys could move to big engineering projects, but some can’t.

I think some infrastructure spending is a good idea. Particularly, the projects on the books which are national in scale (to minimize regional pork distortions), and of widely accepted utility. There might be a hundred billion dollars worth of these - maybe more. One of my favorites is an upgrade to the electrical grid. It seems pretty clear that the energy of the future will increasingly be distributed using electricity, but even if demand for electricity doesn’t go up, the grid can be made much more efficient with ‘smart metering’. A program to put smart meters in homes could be very useful, cut down on pollution and fuel consumption, and save money. And that’s a program that could be halted at any point if need be, with benefit still going to the portion that was built. So it’s pretty low risk.

Do a few things like that. But a widescale crash program to build out huge amounts of infrastructure at once is bound to be a boondoggle.

Raise Canada’s rent. An idea whose time has come.

Nobody who supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq has the slightest credibility in criticizing spending on anything else. If Obama wanted to spend tax payer money buying bunny slippers for every illegal immigrant, that would still be less irresponsible and more defensible than the spending on Iraq.

Conservatives coming in here now and trying to posture and bloviate about fiscal responsibility just look ridiculous. They sound like David Crosby getting indignant about somebody smoking a joint, like Ozzy Osbourne lecturing people about diction, like Lindsay Lohan saying that skirt looks slutty.

If Iraq is to become the gold standard by which the wisdom of future spending is evaluated, we are in big trouble. I was kinda hoping that Obama saw it as a bad scheme, not to be emulated.

Everyone should have at least one subject on which their opinion is trustworthy.

This is missing the point. I wasn’t setting a bar, I was calling out hypocrisy. Perhaps there’s something critical to be said about Obama’s infrastructure plan (which I doubt, given that Obama has spent considerable time doing something that his predecessor never bothered with – listening to experts), but those who supported the 6 year drunken spending spree in Iraq are not the ones to say it.

I respectfully disagree. According to the ASCE’s reports over the years, the state of US infrastructure is poor:

It says bring to a good condition. That’s not about gilding the lily. If you will read over the list of projects from the US Mayors’ site, you will see many many replacement/rehab projects. These aren’t new sewer lines to go out to the aldermens’ country retreat or other pork projects; these are things such as replacing a city’s 100-year old brick storm drains before they cave in and destroy several city blocks.

Here is the 2005 report.

I don’t disagree with this at all - as someone mentioned in the other “jobs” thread, the average US citizen now has a skewed idea of what a “good standard of living” is.

I feel your pain, man. :wink:

The amount of funds requested for the infrastructure spending is closer to 50 to 100 billion, rather than the entire one trillion (see post #40). Also, I’m hopeful that the funding will come through existing programs which already have controls in place to prevent corruption (see post #24 above about various Fed funding programs).

It’s been my experience that the price of construction materials drops, the more volume you buy.

If they are termed “ready to go”, that means pull it off the shelf and send it to bid. No more hiring, training, surveying. Definately no architecting.

I don’t know where you live, but “fairly wealthy people” and “civil engineers” are mutually exclusive. Heh.

I’m hopeful that a “widescale crash program” is not what we’re going to get. The civil engineering community has been pushing hard in Washington for projects which “measurably improve public health, safety and quality of life as well as provide substantial and broad-based economic benefit”. An auditing component is also recommended. I certainly understand trepidation over the whole thing. I’m cautiously optimistic.

About this whole “graft and corruption” thing, I have a suggestion. As you may surmise, its a somewhat radical suggestion, but hey! fish gotta sing, birds gotta swim.

How about we trust the people? (OK, take it easy, here, breathe into this bag a few times…)

What with the innertubes and all, we have the capacity for a lot of close observation. If Congressman Dingleberry slips in a sweet side of pork for the great state of Iowa, people in Iowa might notice. Especially if they are of the opposite political persuasion. That sort of attention is the kind of thing that brings politicians to a severe seizure of rectal puckering.

Further, why don’t we try *being *the people? You know, sort of pay attention to what our “leaders” are up to, keep a sharp eye out. When it comes to disinfectant, vampire eradication, and political purity, ain’t nothing beats a healthy supply of good ol’ organic sunshine!

The fact is, you cannot trust politicians. take that bridge in Alaska-there was no reason to blow all of that money, but the funding was slipped into abill, and done as a personal favor. That is why this country is so messed up-we take resources from productive people and squander them on useless things.

That’s why I’m glad that Obama is going to take less from productive people (i.e. people who actually work for a living), more from parasitic rich people and spend it on things that are useful and needed and don’t kill anybody. What a refreshing change.

What people tend to forget is that many times this money comes with strings attached. The feds will give you $1 mill towards a $2mill project and the local taxpayers have to come up with the rest. Milwaukee county supervisor has said that if the money comes with strings than they don’t want it. Why because the local taxpayers have to pay more to make up the difference. Of course he’s been vilfied for this but it does make a little bit of sense.IMHO.

Oops, I almost forgot, thanks for the clarification.

Matching funds are required in some funding programs but not all. For example, the state revolving fund mentioned earlier is a loan program, no matching funds required. The hazard mitigation grant does require a match, BUT the municipality can use other sources such as CDBG for the matching portion, or “in-kind” services (meaning using city forces/equipment for the matching portion).

Sure you can, if you’re willing to put in the effort. Being citizens, rather than indigenous personnel. Few of us are saints, and the temptations are abundant. Its hard enough to resist temptation, Lord knows, but it is much, much harder if its a lead pipe cinch that you’ll get away with it.

The Bridge to Nowhere is a good example, because it is so perfectly odious. This kind of shit happens because we aren’t paying attention, not because Congress is preternaturally corrupt. And even if it is, the power to change that is ours, hence the responsibility is ours as well.

There is nothing inherently evil in government, that drags metaphysics into political science. Elect good people, and keep an eye on them, and you will have good government. At the very least, a damned sight better one.

So long as you squander the money on useless things, it hardly matters from whom it derives. And these “productive people” of which you speak? Would that be the class of people who works so hard to provide jobs for us lumpenproles? The phrase implies a lot more than it defines.

Even better, how about leave money in their pockets so that they can decide whether it is better to spend or to save, and where to spend and/or save it!

In the end, I guess I’m just not a buyer into Keynesian philosophies. I don’t think the government can effectively spend it’s way out of a recession. I also don’t trust any committee to make better choices than an individual what is best for that individual, provided said individual is rational and self-interested.

Fair enough. I’ve enjoyed the discussion.