# Obama's wrong about Afghanistan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062 "2009-08-20T12:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/21 "2009-08-20T17:18:48Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > So what’s your favorite WAG about why Afghanistan is deemed, by two administrations, to be crucial to our “security”. Because it was governed by a violent unstable fundamentalist regime that threatened and destabilized all its neighbors, as well as hosting a terrorist group that committed an unprecedentedly terrible attack on US soil, and if we pull out, there’s the risk that those people will come back to power? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/22 "2009-08-20T17:19:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oh yes, \*much \*stronger.:rolleyes: From having pretty much control over entire nation, to being insurgents hiding out in the hills.:dubious: Oh for crying out loud. Nobody said they are stronger than they were when they ran the country. It’s a comparison to their status was after they were overthrown. > [@adhay](#): > > So what’s your favorite WAG about why Afghanistan is deemed, by two administrations, to be crucial to our “security”. I don’t think any WAG is necessary unless you find the public rationalizations hard to believe. (Do you?) Al Qaeda trained there until 2001, and was intimately involved with the Taliban when those wonderful people were running the country. Both groups appear to retain a good deal of support there, and the country is also next to good old nuclear-armed Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/23 "2009-08-20T17:25:33Z")
Let’s not forget who armed and trained Al Queda for ten years. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/24 "2009-08-20T17:56:47Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Let’s not forget who armed and trained Al Queda for ten years. Yes, I know. And? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/25 "2009-08-20T18:04:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oh yes, \*much \*stronger.:rolleyes: From having pretty much control over entire nation, to being insurgents hiding out in the hills.:dubious: The Taliban now controls just about half the country. They’re launching rocket attacks on Kabul. You need to keep up with the news. Things are getting very ugly again in Afghanistan. The U.S. is now taking more casualties as a percentage of the total force in the country than they ever did in Iraq. > [@](#): > > The Taliban was the “right someone”. 9-11 was planned in Afghanistan, with Al Queda getting full support from the Taliban government. There were Al Queda recruitment and training camps there, operating under the protection of the Taliban. Yes. And if the U.S. loses in Afghanistan, that same dynamic will emerge. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/26 "2009-08-20T18:10:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, I know. And? And look at the shit pile we’re in. I’m just sayin’ and I ain’t sayin’ more other than that we have ended up fucking ourselves many times with the blowback from our imperialist foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/27 "2009-08-20T18:57:21Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Let’s not forget who armed and trained Al Queda for ten years. Abdullah Azzam? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/28 "2009-08-20T19:26:00Z")
Has a consensus emerged that our situation would be much better if we had avoided going into Iraq and concentrated most of our resources on Afghanistan at the outset? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/29 "2009-08-20T19:38:57Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Understandable feeling, but ultimately it’s this attitude that has greatly contributed to our our current troubles. What do you mean exactly? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/30 "2009-08-20T19:40:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Given the events of the last eight years I think this is going to be a tough position to argue. I am not sure what can really be achieved in Afghanistan because of its history and its tribal divisions. But if the goal in 2001 was to set up a government and keep the Taliban out of power so they and Al Qaeda could not resume their relationship and pose more problems- has that been achieved? It sure doesn’t look that way. Do we have to have the same goal we had in 2001 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/31 "2009-08-20T19:51:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > First of all, just because you don’t support the war doesn’t mean that it is a war based on political expediency. Does it blow your mind that others may support the war for reasons other than what you think it is about? > > And secondly, what do you mean “wasn’t the right someone?” Who do you think planned and carried out the 9-11 attacks? And where are they located? I’ll qualify my statement. It blows my mind that some wars are continued for political expediency and if that’s the case this time, I don’t support it. I started this thread to gather information and perspectives. The problem with terrorism is it’s hard to nail down because it isn’t a specific country or standing army. Guaging the proper response has been difficult. I realized after 9/11 that the scope of the attack required a response even if {not claiming that’s what happened} they blamed someone who may or may not be completely guilty. {Like Saddam} I’m not proposing an immediate exit. I am exploring why we’re there and whjat we can realistically hope to accomplish. The guest on NPR claims the country is to fractured for us to think we can realistically establish a centralized government. His statement was about evaluting goals and stratgies. Are we willing to police it for the next 20 years and to what end? He did say leaving a force there to prevent more terroist camps is a good idea, while letting the Afghanies work out other issues. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/32 "2009-08-20T19:56:24Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Has a consensus emerged and concentrated most of our resources on Afghanistan at the outset? I abstain. It is true (WAG) that our situation would be much better if we had avoided going into Iraq. Period. Afghanistan? From the get-go it’s been public expenditure for private profit. Hmmm. Just like Iraq. And all in the name of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/33 "2009-08-20T20:18:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The Taliban now controls just about half the country. They’re launching rocket attacks on Kabul. You need to keep up with the news. Fortunately, that’s not what the facts support. The [threat assessment map](http://graphics.thomsonreuters.com/RNGS/AUG/AFGTHREAT.jpg) from an Afghan government agency shows that the Taliban actually _control_ small parts of Afghanistan. About half the country, however, is deemed to be a high risk of suffering a Taliban attack or raid. > [@](#): > > Things are getting very ugly again in Afghanistan. The U.S. is now taking more casualties as a percentage of the total force in the country than they ever did in Iraq. U.S. forces are taking more casualties now because the additional troops - particularly the Marines - are going on the offensive into the small but tough areas that the Taliban do openly control. [QUOTE=adhay] Behind all “political expediency” you will find the profit motive. When has US intervention anywhere in the world been based on anything else? [/QUOTE] What was the exact profit motive for U.S. intervention in Bosnia or Kosovo? Somalia in 1993? Haiti in 1994? The current counter-insurgency effort (on a small scale) in the Philippines? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/34 "2009-08-20T20:50:15Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > … > What was the exact profit motive for U.S. intervention in Bosnia or Kosovo? Somalia in 1993? Haiti in 1994? The current counter-insurgency effort (on a small scale) in the Philippines? I will address only the question of Haiti in 1994. It was the [legacy](http://www.cdi.org/adm/Transcripts/802/) of our intervention in Haiti in 1915. > [@](#): > > In 1915, the ruler of Haiti was killed in a popular uprising. The US used this as a pretext to invade and ensure its dominance in the region. > > While the invasion lasted only a few hours, the 20,000-troop US occupation lasted for 19 years. During that time, the US instituted changes to Haitian society that were to have lasting effects on that culture. > > Haitian-borne Jean-Claude Martineau is a spokesperson for the exiled Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide. > > JEAN-CLAUDE MARTINEAU: The United States occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934. If we look at the whole occupation, the result of it is a Haiti which is almost completely dependent economically to the United States. **And we had laws in our country whereby foreigners couldn’t own the land and these laws were repealed and the most fertile land became properties of foreigners.** There is another legacy, that the United States formed a national guard; that is what we still have right now in Haiti. [emphasis mine] If you have the interest, _you_ can check out your other instances our disinterested foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/35 "2009-08-20T21:15:41Z")
Yes, we invaded Haiti in '94 to secure all those sugar plantations we have there now! Moreover, Port au Prince has a strategic grip on the Western Hemisphere’s quinine supply, which is key for us to complete the Grand Canal errrr Pipeline that will someday allow steam-ships to transit from the fields of the United Fruit Company to the casinos of Habana in mere weeks! Chop chop, send the telegraph to the aerodrome to prepare my autogyro, forthwith! I think your views on what wealth we tried to steal from Kosovo, Bosnia, Somalia, and Basilan would be very instructive. Seriously, the amount of natural gas reserves in this country go up every year, and you expect us to believe that the wealthy, bespectacled industrialists are pulling levers of war for a messed up place like Afghanistan? Did Shell Oil place the hidden explosives in the WTC as a cover for this master plan? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/36 "2009-08-20T21:55:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The Taliban now controls just about half the country. They’re launching rocket attacks on Kabul. You need to keep up with the news. Things are getting very ugly again in Afghanistan. The U.S. is now taking more casualties as a percentage of the total force in the country than they ever did in Iraq. > > . They used to control about 90% of the country. And I doubt if they control anywhere close to 50% now. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/37 "2009-08-20T22:25:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, we invaded Haiti in '94 to secure all those sugar plantations we have there now! No. In 1994, we were finally shamed by world opinion to intervene on the disaster left by 50 years of our supporting any thug willing to suppress dissent to our policies in the region. “Papa Doc” et fil Duvalier ring any bells? Why don’t you inform yourself from a [neutral source](http://www.cdi.org/adm/Transcripts/802/) about our history in Haiti? Then we can discuss my other conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/38 "2009-08-20T22:38:09Z")
How did I know even before clicking the link that it would lead to Gene Carroll? I’m still curious about your views on the other countries. Did we feel a need to dominate the supply of racing camels from Somalia? (Seriously, I’ve been told that Somalia raises the fastest camels, and exports them to the Gulf for races.). Was Kosovo’s collection of scrap cars too much for Detroit industrialists to resist? (Seriously, I have never seen so many junk yards than I saw in Kosovo.). Were we trying to corner the market on 1984 Olympic paraphernalia by dropping a couple bombs in Bosnia? (Seriously, I can’t think of another resource unique to Bosnia.) ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/39 "2009-08-20T23:01:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > How did I know even before clicking the link that it would lead to Gene Carroll? Congratulations on finishing the first 5 lines of the cite. > [@](#): > > THE ROAD TO U.S. INTERVENTION IN HAITI > EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: > > Rear Admiral Gene LaRocque (USN, Ret.) > > Director, Center for Defense Information > > HOST: > > Rear Admiral Eugene Carroll, Jr. (USN,Ret.) The next part of your assignment is to make a list of those participating. At 5 lines a whack (your attention span?), it’d take forever. Let me help. > [@](#): > > Features commentary from: > > ELLIOTT ABRAMS > Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute > Former Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs > > HARRIET BABBITT > Ambassador of the United States to the Organization of American States > > Dr. PAUL FARMER, M.D. > Partners in Health > Author, “The Uses of Haiti” > > JEAN-CLAUDE MARTINEAU > Spokesman for the President of Haiti, Jean-Bertrand Aristide > > JAMES MATLACK > Director, American Friends Service Committee in Washington, D.C. > > RANDALL ROBINSON > Executive Director, TransAfrica Now do your homework on Haiti and then and ONLY then we’ll discuss your devastating irony. > [@](#): > > I’m still curious about your views on the other countries. Did we feel a need to dominate the supply of racing camels from Somalia? (Seriously, I’ve been told that Somalia raises the fastest camels, and exports them to the Gulf for races.). Was Kosovo’s collection of scrap cars too much for Detroit industrialists to resist? (Seriously, I have never seen so many junk yards than I saw in Kosovo.). Were we trying to corner the market on 1984 Olympic paraphernalia by dropping a couple bombs in Bosnia? (Seriously, I can’t think of another resource unique to Bosnia.) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/40 "2009-08-20T23:08:10Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > 1. Afghanistan is not really crucial to our security > > 2. We won’t accomplish anything their militarily without the basic support of the people. We don’t have it because it’s to fractured and tribal. > > 3. So, is Obama wrong? Any thoughts on why he is pursuing this policy and maintains that Afghanistan is crucial. 1. No it isn’t. If the worst happened and the Taliban took over most of the country again it wouldn’t really mean anything, AQ already have a huge area of Pakistan border territory they can hang out in. The current stated policy is to build the institutions of Afghanistan up so that in a couple of decades if everything goes well they’re at the same level as Pakistan, which of course is the country bin Laden is currently living in. If increasing control of Afghanisatn by a west-allied government to reduce the scope for terrorists to exist and plan there is the goal then it’s worth noting that neither Afghanistan nor Pakistan can ever hope to be remotely as well-governed and western-allied as Hamburg, Germany, where the 9/11 attacks were planned. Iraq was the crucial country for our security a few years ago, now it’s Afghanistan. 2. You can tell we don’t expect to achieve our stated goals there because our foreign policy apparatchiks have told us we need to achieve an impossible set of targets to succeed there. Afghanistan needs to find four or five times its current GDP to pay for an army effective enough to control the country, NATO forces need to field an army ten times bigger than it ever will to control the violence enough so that these mytical Afghan security forces can be built, trained, successfully deployed. Also they don’t support us because we’re foreign occupiers. This is the fourth time in a century and a bit the Brits thought they could get Afghanistan run the way they wanted and this attempt will be as successful as the previous three. If it really was about preventing terrorists being there we could do that with special forces and air power, the military being there in such numbers is clearly for strategic purposes. 3. Obama needs to be seen to be doing something militarily to try and stop terrorism because if he pulled out and AQ attacked the US again on his watch he’d be crucified as a wimpy lefty liberal blah blah who gave up on the battlefield, thus _emboldening_ the terrorists to attack America, a simple narrative that would be stunningly effective on a simple electorate. So he acts weakly by staying there and thus avoiding giving an even weaker 2012 election rival a huge open goal. Plus, Afghanistan is going to be a crucial transit point for a lot of oil and gas in the future. Control over the region’s energy resources has to play some part in our strategy as it’s generally top of the list of strategic objectives everywhere else. The Pakistanis certainly think so. They don’t believe we’re there to stop terrorism as foreign occupying armies in Muslim countries only ever encourage it and general radicalism just by dint of them being there. They refuse to believe that our leaders could be so stupid. Even face-to-face meetings with George W Bush couldn’t persuade them otherwise. They point out that our being there destabilises their country and the more conspiracy-minded members of their establishment think that potential destabilisation of Pakistan is a feature, not a bug, as if Pakistan implodes the energy-rich and strategically positioned province of Balochistan would be up for grabs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062.md?page=3)