# Obama's wrong about Afghanistan **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062 "2009-08-20T12:42:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/81 "2009-09-06T11:22:52Z")
> **[Latest news & breaking headlines](https://www.thetimes.com/)** > > The latest breaking UK, US, world, business and sport news from The Times and The Sunday Times. Go beyond today's headlines with in-depth analysis and comment. > [@](#): > > In the southern Afghan district of Shorabak, the tribesmen gathered shortly before last month’s presidential election to discuss which candidate they would back. After a debate they chose to endorse Abdullah Abdullah, President Hamid Karzai’s leading opponent. > The tribal leaders prepared to deliver a landslide for Abdullah – but it never happened. They claim Ahmed Wali Karzai, the president’s brother and leader of the Kandahar provincial council, detained the local governor and closed all the district’s 46 polling sites on election day. > The ballot boxes were taken back to the district headquarters where, tribal leaders allege, they were stuffed with ballots by local policemen. A total of 23,900 ballots were finally sent off to Kabul, the capital – **every one of them a vote for Karzai.** Karzai’s as popular as was Thieu in South Vietnam. How 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/82 "2009-09-06T21:13:52Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle\_east/article6823431.ece](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6823431.ece) > Karzai’s as popular as was Thieu in South Vietnam. How 'bout that. Every Afghan with a brain recognizes that Karzai is despite any of his imperfections is way better then the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/83 "2009-09-06T21:25:22Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Every Afghan with a brain recognizes that Karzai is despite any of his imperfections is way better then the Taliban. Really, in the same way the Vietnamese knew the western puppet and election fraud of the south was “way better” than the alternative? Btw, if you read the article that’s not the choice. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/84 "2009-09-06T21:25:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > One of the few good things President Obama had done in my opinion is continuing the war in Afghanistan. Our armies of liberation have been respected by the Afghan population who think we’re better then the Taliban. And the US recognizes various differences between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. For instance it’s been willing to negotiate with the former. I think they respect us most when we kill them along with some suspected insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/85 "2009-09-06T22:05:31Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Really, in the same way the Vietnamese knew the western puppet and election fraud of the south was “way better” than the alternative? > > Btw, if you read the article that’s not the choice. The Taliban are a bunch of mediaeval fanatics that very few Afghans like. Look most Afghans have a sense of reality and that means that Karzai is better then the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/86 "2009-09-06T22:24:45Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The Taliban are a bunch of mediaeval fanatics that very few Afghans like. Look most Afghans have a sense of reality and that means that Karzai is better then the Taliban. It’s not Star Wars, it’s not cowboys vs. red Indians. I don’t think I’m even breaking the surface here, am I? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/87 "2009-09-06T23:43:07Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > It’s not Star Wars, it’s not cowboys vs. red Indians. I don’t think I’m even breaking the surface here, am I? I know. What I’m saying is that Karzai is better then the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/88 "2009-09-07T00:14:39Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I know. What I’m saying is that Karzai is better then the Taliban. For the poppy industry anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/89 "2009-09-07T00:52:15Z")
The Afghan security forces aren’t exactly doing us an favors over there in terms of hearts and minds. The Taliban have been greeted as liberators in some areas when they kicked our Afghan people out : [http://www.afghanistannewscenter.com/news/2009/july/jul122009.html#1](http://www.afghanistannewscenter.com/news/2009/july/jul122009.html#1) The idea we can actually win some kind of military victory there is just silly and the reasons we’re told we have to stay there are even sillier. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/90 "2009-09-07T02:10:20Z")
A couple Friedmen units from now should give us a clearer view of where we are. Being an anti-imperialist American is like being an anti-sacrifice Mayan. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/91 "2009-09-14T19:09:44Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > So, is Obama wrong? Any thoughts on why he is pursuing this policy and maintains that Afghanistan is crucial. Aside from teh entire “we broke it we bought it” moral imperitive, there is the fact that unlike Iraq, the Taliban and al Qeada did in fact have something to do with 9/11 (of course you wonder why Saudi Arabia hasn’t been turned into a sea of glass). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/92 "2009-09-14T22:16:26Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > Aside from teh entire “we broke it we bought it” moral imperitive, there is the fact that unlike Iraq, the Taliban and al Qeada did in fact have something to do with 9/11 (of course you wonder why Saudi Arabia hasn’t been turned into a sea of glass). That’s why we attacked. The question is why we’re still there, should we be, and in what capacity? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/93 "2009-09-15T00:53:44Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > you wonder why Saudi Arabia hasn’t been turned into a sea of glass. Because it’s full of oil and the current leadership are as on our side as any bunch of Saudis can be. Things could be a lot worse for us there. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/94 "2009-12-02T12:28:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Every Afghan with a brain recognizes that Karzai is despite any of his imperfections is way better then the Taliban. Still think so? ---
**Author:** ![independentminded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed8c4c/32.png) [@independentminded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/independentminded)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/95 "2009-12-02T14:08:50Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think they respect us most when we kill them along with some suspected insurgents. Oh, really??!!?? I have to disagree with you, cosmosdan. The Afghans will end up **hating** the USA all the more as a consequence of our occupation of their country. We had no business going in there in the first place, and the fact that Obama is escalating and extending this war/occupation is one of the reasons that he lost my vote to begin with. One doesn’t have to have been following this whole mess very closely to realize that there’s nothing romantic about war to begin with, and nothing romantic whatsoever about laying waste to entire countries and sickening, killing and maiming their people for nothing. The United States has not had the respect of the rest of the world since World War II, and won’t, if our government continues to stick its nose in where it doesn’t belong and to invade, carpet-bomb and destroy whole countries and their people simply because their own chosen leaders don’t tally up with USA interests. Sorry, but that’s how I see it, and that’s how I’m calling it. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/96 "2009-12-02T14:57:59Z")
> [@independentminded](#): > > …The United States has not had the respect of the rest of the world since World War II, and won’t, if our government continues to stick its nose in where it doesn’t belong… So you espouse a policy of isolationism? That didn’t work out too well, either, in the last century. In any event, a policy of isolationism is not at all feasible for the U.S. today, considering the extent that we are dependent on foreign trade. > [@independentminded](#): > > …and to invade, carpet-bomb and destroy whole countries and their people… While they are certainly not perfect, the U.S. has gone to a tremendous amount of effort in recent decades to develop so-called “smart weapons” to minimize civilian casualties and eliminate the need for indiscriminate carpet bombing in wartime, especially in populated areas. > [@independentminded](#): > > …simply because their own chosen leaders don’t tally up with USA interests… The former leaders of Afghanistan did much more than to merely not “tally up with USA interests.” They actively harbored and supported terrorists that attacked our country on 9/11. This action by the government of Afghanistan is a clear act of war, and it is fundamental to our security to deal with this. Our response has been supported by NATO and our allies. There is no clearer justification for a warlike response than responding to an actual attack on us. I notice that you excepted WWII above. Why? By your logic, we should have not stuck our noses where it didn’t belong, right? Incidentally, none of this applied to the invasion of Iraq. I think that that war was a complete mistake. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/97 "2009-12-02T15:12:43Z")
Well, if it’s a prelude to withdrawal I don’t know that he’s entirely wrong. If we really do pull out by July 2011, then I can accept that outcome. But I tend to agree that it’s pointless. There’s no such thing as Al Qaeda, it’s an amorphous entity, more of a rallying cry than an organization. The sort of rag-tag anarcho-syndicate that can form up at any time anywhere. Being in Afghanistan does nothing against them. We need the ability to get back into Afghanistan if we have to, but we don’t need to stay there. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/98 "2009-12-02T16:29:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Afghanistan IS important. If the U.S. just leaves, the Taliban will come back into power. The Taliban and Al-Qaida are closely related, to the point where at times it can be hard to tell them apart. > > If the Taliban regain power, we will again be treated to such spectacles as soccer stadiums being converted into execution centers for uppity women and anyone who doesn’t follow the radical Islamic path. It would be a huge propaganda victory for militant Islam. It would embolden the militants in Pakistan and help to destabilize that country. And it would deprive the U.S. of a staging area from which to go after al-Qaida. > > That said, I still don’t see a path to ‘victory’ in Afghanistan. I’m not sure what a ‘surge’ accomplishes there. The ‘surge’ in Iraq wasn’t just a blind increase in manpower in the hope that it woudl help - the increase was done in support of a very specific counter-insurgency strategy that had defined tactics and defined goals. I don’t see anything of the sort in Afghanistan as of yet. > > It may be that the role of the U.S. in Afghanistan is basically to be a permanent police force, much like the UN was in Cyprus or in parts of Africa. Rather than trying to ‘win’ the war, it may be better to just make sure that bases are well defended, and take a longer-term strategy of winning over the hearts and minds of the average person while building communication networks among the people to help root out al-Qaida and the Taliban. With no end in sight. The Taliban is in power. How would that be a change? Then we want the Afghan people to support a criminal enterprise ,the Karzai government and the graft and corruption that it represents. What has this war brought to the Afghanis but death and destruction? To fight Al Quada requires the CIA working with Interpol and other secret type organizations behind the scenes. It needs good police work and intelligence. It needs agents that are trained in the proper languages. It needs us to bribe insiders. It does not need us blowing up a another backward civilization for our imagined needs. The military always wants to wage war, big loud wars that make heroes out of generals. ---
**Author:** ![cn8of10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@cn8of10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cn8of10)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/99 "2009-12-02T23:07:54Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > So, is Obama wrong? Any thoughts on why he is pursuing this policy and maintains that Afghanistan is crucial. Afghanistan **is** crucial to U.S. and European securtiy interest. It is important to foster a stablized Afghan government and functional Afghan militia: 1. To keep the extremist from having a free hand to operate openly and unchallenged. The Al-Qaeda extremist are now a hunted insurgency (albeit an well entrenched one). We have assets in country that could strike at high value targets. Although the Taleban operate openly, they can be challenged by U.S. or NATO forces. This is crucial. 2. Because Afghanistan borders two countries of vital military strategic importance: a. Pakistan is an ally with nuclear weapons capability which is currently fighting an internal battle against extremist. Afghanistan cannot be allowed to become a safe haven for these forces to re-group and organize large scale attacks on Pakistan which would further destabilize a region with two nuclear powers and another emerging. b. Iran is an adversary that will eventually have nuclear weapons capability. Afghanistan must remain accessible as a staging area for the U.S. military should the need arise. (Just because I don’t like, and would strongly oppose, the idea of U.S. military engagement with Iran does not mean that the military shouldn’t plan for just such a contingency.) Afghanistan is also a country that has been decimated largely at the hands of the world super-powers and its more powerful neighbors. During the Russian occupation, the US via Pakistan, armed the Mujahideen who became powerful warlords after the Russian withdrawal. The Taleban came to power as a response to the lawless aggression of the warlords against the general population. The laws that they imposed however were equally as oppressive. Leaving Afghanistan pre-maturely would result in a catastrophic loss of life in the power vacuum as these two forces struggle for supremacy. For this reason, establishing a quasi-stable governmental system in Afghanistan before the large-scale U.S. military withdrawal is important for geo-political reasons. We are essentially saying that ‘we helped to create this mess, so we are going to leave things a bit more tidy than how we found it’. That being said, I still do not agree with the strategic objective of defeating the nation-wide insurgency and installing a democratic government. I think we should be concentrating the efforts of the U.S. military on stabilizing a smaller region of the country and training an effective and centralized local military force. The warlords and the Taleban are too entrenched to realisticly excise from the political process so the White House should put enormous pressure on the Karzai Administration to get these stakeholders to a negotiating table to start the process creating a power-sharing deal. This process will take YEARS (if not decades) and in that time NATO and the U.N (and thus the U.S.) will maintain a reduced presence in country. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It may be that the role of the U.S. in Afghanistan is basically to be a permanent police force, much like the UN was in Cyprus or in parts of Africa. Rather than trying to ‘win’ the war, it may be better to just make sure that bases are well defended, and take a longer-term strategy of winning over the hearts and minds of the average person while building communication networks among the people to help root out al-Qaida and the Taliban. With no end in sight. This is, unfortunately, the most likely outcome of this whole mess, and as country we will have to come to terms with it..eventually. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062/100 "2009-12-02T23:31:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > To fight Al Quada requires the CIA working with Interpol and other secret type organizations behind the scenes. It needs good police work and intelligence. It needs agents that are trained in the proper languages. It needs us to bribe insiders. It does not need us blowing up a another backward civilization for our imagined needs. The military always wants to wage war, big loud wars that make heroes out of generals. Too bad our undercover contacts will be exposed to AQ via the discovery portion of Obama’s terrorist show trial in NYC. How many do you think will still be around for this behind the scenes work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obamas-wrong-about-afghanistan/507062.md?page=6)