# Oberlin college and free speech debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070 "2019-06-25T22:50:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/61 "2019-06-28T02:27:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There’s one part I’m missing from all the coverage of this story: I have heard from former Oberlin students that Gibson’s was known for racism for many, many, many years before this shoplifting incident. The shoplifting is merely the thing that broke the camel’s back. These former Obies cannot understand how the college can defame the family if the accusation is well-founded. > > I, too, have a hard time understandning how Gibson’s could be entitled to $11 million in compensatory damages. Shit, their whole store and everything in it isn’t worth $11 million! A business isn’t just worth the price of its fixed assets. In the case of compensatory damages they are going to look at current lost revenue, expectations for future lost revenue, personal damages to the owners that may make it harder for them to open up new businesses or get jobs, yada yada. It’s complex. For example, let’s say you work out a business plan for a new business. You invest $1 million in the business infrastructure, and you understand that business will ramp up slowly and you need to build a community presence, goodwill, and trust before the big bucks come in. So in the first year you barely break even, and in the aecond year you make $10,000. But business is growing, and you are on track to be earning maybe 10 times as much in five years, then your plan is to expand and grow. Now someone comes across and defames you in your second year, and organizes a boycott based on lies, and does grave damage to your reputation and forces you to close. How much damage did you suffer? Just the $10,000? Or $10,000 plus the million is cost you to start the business? What if you had spent another million on advertising? What if you were on track to be making $500,000 per year in five years, and that’s no longer going to happen? Or for a closer scenario, let’s say you had a family business that had been in the area for 80 years, and you had built up extensive goodwill and name recognition, and you could expect your business to keep running for another 80 years. Then someone irreparably damages you and forces you to close. Are uou only entitled to the fixed value of the business? Clearly not. Things like brand value and relationships with suppliers and customers also have value, as does expectation of future profit. I don’t know what the correct number is in Gibson’s case, but it sure as hell is 't the value of their fixed assets or a year’s worth of income. It’s much more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/62 "2019-06-28T03:07:43Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > Regardless of the law (about which I know very little), the abject hatefulness and flagrant mendacity from the Oberlin admins could not have possibly been helpful to their case in front of a local jury. I don’t think the low-quality commentary from that website clouds how bad the college acted here. Another thing that would not have helped in front of a local jury was the suggestion from Oberlin admins that in the future, if an Oberlin student was caught shoplifting, the bakery shouldn’t call the cops and instead call Oberlin. That suggestion of preferential, lenient treatment for Oberlin students, while local kids have the police called on them, is exactly the kind of policy that inflames local feeling against the elite university. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/63 "2019-06-28T03:20:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There’s one part I’m missing from all the coverage of this story: I have heard from former Oberlin students that Gibson’s was known for racism for many, many, many years before this shoplifting incident. The shoplifting is merely the thing that broke the camel’s back. These former Obies cannot understand how the college can defame the family if the accusation is well-founded. If it was so well-known that the bakery was racist, Oberlin’s lawyers shouldn’t have had any trouble finding evidence of racism. The fact that they weren’t able to prove a pattern of racism suggests that perhaps the common knowledge was nothing more than gossip that wouldn’t stand up in a court of law. Oberlin wasn’t helped by the fact that the youths involved admitted that they were properly caught shop-lifting, and that there was no racial element involved in their particular case. > [@](#): > > I, too, have a hard time understandning how Gibson’s could be entitled to $11 million in compensatory damages. Shit, their whole store and everything in it isn’t worth $11 million! Welcome to the world of American civil juries, which have a reputation for giving grossly inflated awards that get cut down on appeal. > [@](#): > > I’m also puzzled as to how the college could be put on the hook for such vast sums, for what seems to be a second-fiddle role in the boycott. Does this imply that the student protesters themselves, had they been sued, would have been subject to even greater penalties? Haven’t read the coverage, but it sounds like joint and several liability: all the tort-feasors are equally liable to the plaintiff for the full award of damages, and then have to apportion it amongst themselves. In practice, that means that even if the deep pockets defendant was only responsible for a portion of the injury, it pays the full amount and then goes to the other tortfeasors ( in this case the students and the faculty members who were also defendants), and tries to recover from them. Shouldn’t be a problem; most students and faculty have a million or two lying about. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/64 "2019-06-28T03:27:02Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > It’s hard to avoid Legal Insurrection as a cite here because they seemed to be the only folks with someone present reporting literally every day of the trial. > > The quality of their commentary was not high. > > But the reports also had [plenty of direct quotes from the trial](https://twitter.com/LegInsurrection/status/1139950437942083584), and those direct cites (ignoring the lower quality commentary) seemed to strike other legal observers as extremely damning of Oberlin’s behavior, even regardless of the legal point of issue. Another lawyer I found commenting on the trial said something to the effect of “When the law isn’t on your side, argue the facts. And the facts here are so incredibly terrible for Oberlin that they should’ve settled.” My favorite example is when a former college security employee testified that a low-tier Oberlin admin present at the bakery protest told him to stop taking pictures, and **threatened to key his car** if he didn’t stop. > > I don’t know much about defamation law, but there were just so fuckin many dipshit stories like that about the Oberlin admins, especially about the vice president of the college, like when they found her own email saying “Fuck them” and that she was tempted to “unleash the students”. > > Regardless of the law (about which I know very little), the abject hatefulness and flagrant mendacity from the Oberlin admins could not have possibly been helpful to their case in front of a local jury. I don’t think the low-quality commentary from that website clouds how bad the college acted here. Along with that and agreeing with what I said above, that the administration threw the bakery under the bus to deflect future problems with the students: " This weekend going to be tweeting excerpts from our Gibson’s Bakery v. Oberlin College trial coverage, will take a while, watch this thread. Let’s start with administrator suggesting campus worse than nursery school. " It goes on to say the admins feared the students would mount protests in the school cafeteria and throw food on the floor and stomp on it in protest. Yes - the administrator says the students act like they were in nursery school. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/65 "2019-06-28T05:23:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How about you try using a site that’s a wee less partisan than “Legal Insurrection”? :dubious: How about the [local paper](http://www.chroniclet.com/news/2019/06/14/Oberlin-alumni-letter-predicts-lengthy-and-complex-legal-process.html)? I think the NYT had an article on the verdict, but the Chronicle-Telegram followed the story a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/66 "2019-06-28T12:28:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > From the facts presented, the jury may very well have gotten this one right. The college sided with the students and defamed a long standing business in the community with accusations that were false. That’s libel. The jury may well have gotten it right but I have yet to see in this thread where the college made false accusations. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/67 "2019-06-28T16:33:25Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > How about the [local paper](http://www.chroniclet.com/news/2019/06/14/Oberlin-alumni-letter-predicts-lengthy-and-complex-legal-process.html)? > > I think the NYT had an article on the verdict, but the Chronicle-Telegram followed the story a lot. Thanks. I do find the request that the shop call the school rather than the police if any student was caught shoplifting disturbing. I mean, WTF? These adults, not young teenagers who need Mom and Dad if they get in trouble. You’re at college to learn and grow, not to be sheltered and treated like a little kid. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/68 "2019-06-28T16:46:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Thanks. I do find the request that the shop call the school rather than the police if any student was caught shoplifting disturbing. I mean, WTF? These adults, not young teenagers who need Mom and Dad if they get in trouble. You’re at college to learn and grow, not to be sheltered and treated like a little kid. They don’t want to be treated like little kids. They want to be treated like what they think they are - beings superior to the common masses, whose thoughts and lives are above petty things. So allowances must be made. The rules are different for me. I was made for better things than sullying myself with petty details about earning a living, especially by the likes of Those People. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/69 "2019-06-28T17:02:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They don’t want to be treated like little kids. They want to be treated like what they think they are - beings superior to the common masses, whose thoughts and lives are above petty things. So allowances must be made. > > The rules are different for me. I was made for better things than sullying myself with petty details about earning a living, especially by the likes of Those People. > > Regards, > Shodan You say “get off my lawn” unironically and frequently, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/70 "2019-06-28T17:08:41Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You say “get off my lawn” unironically and frequently, don’t you? I have servants to do that for me. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/71 "2019-06-28T19:40:12Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Haven’t read the coverage, but it sounds like joint and several liability: all the tort-feasors are equally liable to the plaintiff for the full award of damages, and then have to apportion it amongst themselves. In practice, that means that even if the deep pockets defendant was only responsible for a portion of the injury, it pays the full amount and then goes to the other tortfeasors ( in this case the students and the faculty members who were also defendants), and tries to recover from them. Shouldn’t be a problem; most students and faculty have a million or two lying about. :rolleyes: According to [THIS,](https://www.oberlin.edu/investment/assets) Oberlin College has an endowment of $887 million. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/72 "2019-06-28T19:45:52Z")
It seems to me the college is past the point where they will win there case anymore and it comes down to the question of amount and terms. I’m guessing a lump sum followed by payments over several years and a formal letter of apology. Part of this whole case was the family not wanting their 90 year old grandfather who started the business, to die with the title of “racist” hanging over his head. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/73 "2019-06-29T12:43:28Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Discuss away! I’d never heard of the incident until I started clicking your links and immediately got sidetracked. It seems the _N.Y. Times_ — the venerable _New York Times_ for God’s sake! — has hired two right-wing liars so that it can be “fair and balanced” also. Bahhh! I want to throw up. > > So … some of us are outraged that the bakery was given a mere $33 million because some Americans exercised free speech? Is this the biggest injustice underway in the U.S.A. today? > > **I’ll ask OP and other thread participants what they think of armed militants shutting down the Oregon state government _with active encouragement from the GOP_. Answer that question; THEN I’ll take time to study the latest bakery incident and comment on that.** > > Thanks in advance. posters are missing point–Oberlin was sued for using libel as reason for cancelling contract with Gibson’s ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/74 "2019-06-29T13:03:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont know if this has been discussed, but I wanted to discuss the case of [Oberlin college vs a local bakery.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/us/oberlin-bakery-lawsuit.html) It seems that in 2016 a black student was confronted for shoplifting and him and 2 friends got into a fight with the bakery store clerk and were later arrested for it. Many students at the college started protesting the bakery because they felt the charges were racist and bakery itself was racist. The bakery eventually sued the college because it feels like the college’s administrators actively supported the protests and used school resources to accuse the bakery of racism which cost them alot of business. The jury awarded $11 million then another $33 million for more damages. > > How had the college supported the protests? [THIS](https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/06/oberlin-college-lawsuit-woke-privilege/) article says an administrator from the college was there with a bullhorn egging the students on and helped by handing out flyers called the business racist. The school also sent over pizza and drinks to the students protesting. Although[THIS OPPOSING](https://oberlinreview.org/18975/opinions/media-coverage-of-gibsons-verdict-misses-the-mark/) article says the administrator only attended as a bystander and just to make sure everyone was safe. > > Furthermore[THIS](https://www.salon.com/2019/06/14/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-bizarre-lawsuit-between-oberlin-college-and-a-local-bakery/) article said the school also demanded the bakery drop all charges against the shoplifters and in the future, if students are caught stealing, to call them instead of police. > > Now from what I read, this has sent a message to other colleges that they also might be sued for things their students do and they either support or do little to stop. [The Oberlin college president thinks so.](https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/06/oberlin-college-president-claims-gibsons-bakery-case-could-have-profound-chilling-effect-on-free-speech.html) > > [This article says it also fallows a recurring “Town vs Gown” issue](https://www.toledoblade.com/local/education/2019/06/15/oberlin-college-gibsons-bakery-libel-lawsuit-race-community-free-speech/stories/20190614189). > Now the question I’d like to debate is, will or should colleges be held liable if their students protest a private business? > > Will this suit encourage other people to sue a college if its students protest them? > > What do you all think? what’s interesting is that nobody discusses the fact that the black student was in fact guilty of shoplifting, but claims it’s racist because he got caught? how does so-called 'profiling" charge change fact that alleged “victim” was actually doing crime. Basically saying that I’m guilty but you shouldn’t have caught me? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/75 "2019-06-29T13:37:24Z")
I can’t find it in all the news articles that have been linked, but the three students admitted at their sentencing that they had been shoplifting and the Bakery did not racially profile them. It’s almost as if all this could have been avoided if people would just wait for the court process to work. I guess that’s just too old-fashioned. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/76 "2019-06-29T13:50:53Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > posters are missing point–Oberlin was sued for using libel as reason for cancelling contract with Gibson’s That doesn’t even make sense and doesn’t reflect anything presented in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/77 "2019-06-29T15:36:46Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I can’t find it in all the news articles that have been linked, but the three students admitted at their sentencing that they had been shoplifting and the Bakery did not racially profile them. > > It’s almost as if all this could have been avoided if people would just wait for the court process to work. I guess that’s just too old-fashioned. In one of the articles I linked to above, that point was also brought up. Thing is IF they had just waited for this to go to court, most likely the three would have gotten a light sentence like a fine or community service or such and the whole thing might have gone away quietly. BUT, they instead the next day showed up with signs and bullhorns and ruined the reputation of a business that had served the community and the college since 1885. The 3 students arrested because of the publicity ended up getting the book thrown at them so in the end, the students ended up hurting their own. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/78 "2019-06-29T15:41:19Z")
[HERE is a link to a letter to USA Today from the owner of the bakery (well actually the son) telling his side of the story.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2019/06/21/oberlin-college-gibson-bakery-lawsuit-column/1523525001/) Some quotes: “The bakery has long been a popular stop among students, residents and returning alumni. Our family and business’ reputation was a source of pride for generations. But all that changed in 2016, when protesters drew national attention to our store in Oberlin.” " Police arrested the student. But the next day, hundreds of people gathered in protest. From bullhorns they called for a boycott. The sidewalk and park across the street from our store were filled with protesters holding signs labeling us racists and white supremacists. The arrest, they said, was the result of racial profiling. The narrative was set and there was no combating it. Despite the lack of any evidence, our family was accused of a long history of racism and discrimination. Oberlin College officials ordered the suspension of the more than 100-year business relationship with our bakery, and our customers dwindled. We were officially on trial — not in a courtroom, but in the court of public opinion. And we were losing. " " In the end, the words of my father inspired me to continue the fight. He said, “In my life, I’ve done everything I could to treat all people with dignity and respect. And now, nearing the end of my life, I’m going to die being labeled as a racist.” There wasn’t enough time, he feared, to set the record straight. His legacy had been tarnished and he felt powerless to stop it. I had to see this case through. This experience has taught me that reputations are a fragile thing. They take a lifetime to build but only moments to destroy. Ultimately, the jury sent a clear message in our case — that truth still matters. They awarded us $33 million in punitive damages and $11 million in compensatory damages for libel, tortious interference with business relationships and intentional infliction of emotional distress. It’s my hope that the jury’s verdict against Oberlin College is a wake-up call. In an age where social media can spread lies at an alarming rate, what happened to Gibson’s Bakery could happen to anyone. " ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/79 "2019-06-29T15:56:22Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Some quotes: None of which address any libel by the college. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/80 "2019-06-29T16:09:59Z")
They still dont get what they did was wrong. [Here is a video of the college president on CBS News.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oberlin-college-president-defamation-lawsuit-verdict-gibsons-bakery-44-million-libel/) Just start counting all the things the pres left out and she STILL doesnt think the college did anything wrong or the Gibsons bakery was hurt. Also notice how the CBS interviewer only asks lowball, easy questions and doesnt challenge her. Talk about the press watering this all down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070.md?page=5)