# Oberlin college and free speech debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070 "2019-06-25T22:50:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/141 "2019-07-31T17:13:41Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Well thats the big question now is will colleges be FORCED to put the brakes on student protests? > > Yeah any administrator who says “stop, let me investigate first” will probably get tarred and feathered, at first. But I think over time this will go down and students will learn to follow the rules. IF the college makes the rules clear. Colleges have been learning to deal with crazy students for decades. > > And they better. After this ruling I think we will see more people suing colleges and student groups (which are college sponsored) for slander. The administrator most involved and who was down there with the protesters with the bullhorn admitted it was her JOB to follow college guidelines to ensure safety so even here their was some measure of oversight. She just did a crappy job of it. > > Now sure, some students acting totally as independent and normal citizens can protest and hand out flyers and can still be held liable, but unless the college has investigated the situation and can totally endorse anything the protesters do they need to stay far away from it. > > As for the students involved 3 years ago being forced to pay - isnt it interesting we arent hearing from them even those who graduated? Are they now trying to run and hide? Colleges will be fine so long as they don’t support the protests. The fact that the students protested is not what made the college liable. It was its support. I don’t know why a college administrator had a job to follow students to “ensure safety.” A college’s job is to educate students. If a group of them want to go heckle a Trump rally or show support for Trump, then that is an outside matter which, IMHO, concerns the college not one whit. The students are adults. They can be as safe or unsafe as any other group of adults who are doing what they are doing. ETA: You said college groups which I don’t think is correct. If the Oberlin College Young Republicans started throwing punches at a Bernie rally, I cannot think of a theory where the college would be responsible for that, again unless they gave them boxing gloves. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/142 "2019-07-31T20:29:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Colleges will be fine so long as they don’t support the protests. The fact that the students protested is not what made the college liable. It was its support. > > I don’t know why a college administrator had a job to follow students to “ensure safety.” A college’s job is to educate students. If a group of them want to go heckle a Trump rally or show support for Trump, then that is an outside matter which, IMHO, concerns the college not one whit. > > The students are adults. They can be as safe or unsafe as any other group of adults who are doing what they are doing. > > ETA: You said college groups which I don’t think is correct. If the Oberlin College Young Republicans started throwing punches at a Bernie rally, I cannot think of a theory where the college would be responsible for that, again unless they gave them boxing gloves. Thats hard to say. Many have said that colleges act as de facto parents. On many colleges different groups might be college sponsored so they are kind of an extension of the college. Like in your example if the college republicans are a recognized group that receives student funding (from fees) and meets on college property and advertises thru college media - the college then might be liable. Sort of like how many colleges have limited authority over college fraternities. Now if say just some students who just happened to go to the college protested, then your right it seems its out of the colleges hands. It doesnt mean though that individuals could not be held liable for there actions. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/143 "2019-08-02T06:44:35Z")
[Oberlin College ordered to post $36 million bond to delay Gibson’s Bakery collection of Judgment](https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/07/oberlin-college-ordered-to-post-36-million-bond-to-delay-gibsons-bakery-collection-of-judgment/) > [@](#): > > Clearly, Ohio Civ. R. 62(A) gives the Court great discretion in determining what conditions, if any, are proper to grant a stay of execution of the judgment and to afford security to the Plaintiffs. After considering the Parties respective briefs, the attached exhibits, and applicable precedent the Court hereby orders that the judgment is stayed, as of the date of this entry, subject to the following conditions: > > 1. Within seven (7) days, Defendants shall post a bond in the amount of $36,367,711.56. Failure to timely post the bond shall result in the stay being terminated. Timely posting of the bond shall stay the judgment until August 19, 2019; > > 2. If Defendants timely file their post-trial motions on or before August 19, 2019, the stay shall be extended until September 9, 2019. Plaintiffs shall have fourteen (14) days to respond to any post-trial motions and no reply briefs shall be accepted. The Court will rule on Defendants’ motions by September 9, 2019. See Local Rule 9(/1). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/144 "2019-08-02T12:52:30Z")
What are “post-trial” motions? Is this still in the trial court ? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/145 "2019-08-02T14:13:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What are “post-trial” motions? Is this still in the trial court ? IANAL, but I believe the judge’s order is referring to an appeal by Oberlin College. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/146 "2019-08-02T17:41:30Z")
a little off topic, but I just have to ask: why is the bond set at precisely $36,367,711.56 ? That extra 56 cents is really going to make a difference. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/147 "2019-08-02T23:19:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > IANAL, but I believe the judge’s order is referring to an appeal by Oberlin College. Different from the system I work in, then. Here, once the trial court decision is rendered, all questions about the appeal are done in the appeal court, not the trial court. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/148 "2019-08-07T14:40:13Z")
Another update. The family is accusing Oberlin college of using delaying tactics with the idea that the 92 year old owner is dying of cancer and wont be around to collect on a judgement. It might also be possibly about Oberlin hoping they can cut a better deal with the heirs. [Article reference ONE from Washington times](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/aug/6/gibsons-bakery-family-accuses-oberlin-college-tryi/) [Article reference TWO from Legal Insurrection.](https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/08/david-gibson-video-oberlin-college-plans-to-drag-out-litigation-because-it-knows-im-dying-from-pancreatic-cancer/) Right wing site but many references to appropriate Ohio laws. So if a plaintiff dies while a case in in appeal, would the verdict and money just go away or would it go to the persons heirs? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/149 "2019-08-07T16:54:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What are “post-trial” motions? Is this still in the trial court ? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Different from the system I work in, then. Here, once the trial court decision > is rendered, all questions about the appeal are done in the appeal court, not the trial court. I don’t think it refers to an appeal. I don’t know about Ohio specifically, but I presume it follows the general rule that the filing of a notice of appeal will generally divest the trial court of jurisdiction. I think it refers to things like a motion for a new trial; or a motion for judgment notwithstanding the verdict. (See Ohio R. Civ. P. 50(b) (“a party may serve a motion to have the verdict and any judgment entered thereon set aside and to have judgment entered in accordance with the party’s motion.”); a motion to set aside the damage award. I don’t know if Ohio allows remittitur, but that would be a post-trial motion. There’s a whole pile of stuff that can done between verdict and appeal. They don’t have those where you are? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/150 "2019-08-07T21:28:28Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I don’t think it refers to an appeal. I don’t know about Ohio specifically, but I presume it follows the general rule that the filing of a notice of appeal will generally divest the trial court of jurisdiction. > > I think it refers to things like a motion for a new trial; or a motion for judgment notwithstanding the verdict. (See Ohio R. Civ. P. 50(b) (“a party may serve a motion to have the verdict and any judgment entered thereon set aside and to have judgment entered in accordance with the party’s motion.”); a motion to set aside the damage award. I don’t know if Ohio allows remittitur, but that would be a post-trial motion. > > There’s a whole pile of stuff that can done between verdict and appeal. They don’t have those where you are? I could be wrong but according to the Legal Insurrection site above I think they said they were hoping for the type of appeal where the earlier decision is thrown out because they can prove the judge did something wrong. A lawyer weighs in and sites Ohio law. Also the bond that was set. Does that have something like a 5% annual interest? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/151 "2019-08-08T06:36:20Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I think it refers to things like a motion for a new trial; or a motion for judgment notwithstanding the verdict. (See Ohio R. Civ. P. 50(b) (“a party may serve a motion to have the verdict and any judgment entered thereon set aside and to have judgment entered in accordance with the party’s motion.”); a motion to set aside the damage award. I don’t know if Ohio allows remittitur, but that would be a post-trial motion. > > There’s a whole pile of stuff that can done between verdict and appeal. They don’t have those where you are? Motion for a new trial would be an appellate remedy, not a trial remedy. Judgment n.o.v. and remittur both relate to jury verdicts. Civil jury trials are very rare here, so I don’t know if we have an equivalent. What’s the rest of the “whole pile of stuff” that is done in the trial court after verdict? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/152 "2019-08-08T15:54:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I could be wrong but according to the Legal Insurrection site above I think they said they were hoping for the type of appeal where the earlier decision is thrown out because they can prove the judge did something wrong. A lawyer weighs in and sites Ohio law. There will, almost certainly, be some sort of appeal to an appellate court. I was just trying to address what kind of “post-trial” motions were being referenced in the trial court order. > [@](#): > > Also the bond that was set. Does that have something like a 5% annual interest? I could be wrong, but I don’t think appellate bonds have interest. They exist to ensure to make sure that the losing party below doesn’t lose its ability to pay during the appeal. The judgment itself should have interest. The federal rate is (effectively) set by the federal reserve and changes over time. I have no idea how Ohio works. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What’s the rest of the “whole pile of stuff” that is done in the trial court after verdict? Ok, maybe it’s a small pile. Routine post trial motions would be motions for a new trial; judgment n.o.v.; remittitur or other damages-related motions; amend or alter the judgment; for additional or altered findings (after a bench trial). I’d put attorneys’ fees motions in that category. I don’t know if there are many state-specific motions. Most of the motions are pretty pro forma, but they’re done to preserve issues for appeal. Edit: Also, obviously, a stay pending appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/153 "2019-08-08T16:58:23Z")
Routine post trial motions would be motions for a new trial; - that would be appellate relief in our system; judgment n.o.v.; remittitur or other damages-related motions; - as mentioned earlier, civil juries are so rare in our system that I don’t know if we have these remedies. amend or alter the judgment; - very limited power to correct slips or clear errors, but once formal judgment is entered, trial court is _functus_, and it’s an issue for the Court of Appeal for additional or altered findings (after a bench trial). - don’t think I’ve ever heard of this, barring clear errors or slips (e.g. a miscalculation in a multiplication, addition, etc ) I’d put attorneys’ fees motions in that category. - costs for us are governed by a tariff of costs in the Rules, but if counsel can’t agree on costs, then can apply to the trial judge. Happens in particularly complex trials, in my experience. Also, obviously, a stay pending appeal. - stays are normally automatic on filing notice of appeal, but if there’s any issue, you apply to a judge of the Court of Appeal in chambers, not to the trial judge. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/154 "2019-08-08T17:06:28Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So if a plaintiff dies while a case in in appeal, would the verdict and money just go away or would it go to the persons heirs? [The heirs and beneficiaries inherit the lawsuit,](https://www.maurerlaw.net/blog/what-happens-to-a-lawsuit-when-a-defendant-or-plaintiff-dies) I believe. They have to file a notice of death, but I would hope the baker’s attorneys would know to do that. So AFACT Oberlin is still on the hook. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/155 "2019-08-08T17:45:06Z")
That’s the general rule for contracts and torts, but some jurisdictions have a different rule for libel, which is part of the law suit here. Your reputation is a personal to you, and damage to reputation is therefore also personal. If the plaintiff in a libel suit dies before judgment, the libel claim may also disappear, depending on the law of the province or state. Different again if the plaintiff in a libel suit dies after trial judgment in their favour. A judgment cristallises the claim into a monetary debt, which would survive death. So if those sorts of rules apply in Ohio (I have no idea if they do), there might be an issue on appeal. Suppose the grandfather dies while it’s under appeal, and the appeal court then allows the appeal, sets aside the original verdict, and sends it back for a new trial. Since a new trial starts from square 1, the grandfather’s estate wouldn’t be able to maintain the libel action, but could maintain contractual claims, since those are monetary claims, not personal. All very hypothetical of course, and depends on the law of Ohio, about which I know nothing, do not meant as legal advice. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/156 "2019-08-08T19:34:29Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s the general rule for contracts and torts, but some jurisdictions have a different rule for libel, which is part of the law suit here. > > Your reputation is a personal to you, and damage to reputation is therefore also personal. If the plaintiff in a libel suit dies before judgment, the libel claim may also disappear, depending on the law of the province or state. > > Different again if the plaintiff in a libel suit dies after trial judgment in their favour. A judgment cristallises the claim into a monetary debt, which would survive death. > > So if those sorts of rules apply in Ohio (I have no idea if they do), there might be an issue on appeal. Suppose the grandfather dies while it’s under appeal, and the appeal court then allows the appeal, sets aside the original verdict, and sends it back for a new trial. Since a new trial starts from square 1, the grandfather’s estate wouldn’t be able to maintain the libel action, but could maintain contractual claims, since those are monetary claims, not personal. > > All very hypothetical of course, and depends on the law of Ohio, about which I know nothing, do not meant as legal advice. Thanks. IANAL, and I am glad I am not, because if I was, I might understand this and that would be upsetting to me. The linked articles mostly mention that Oberlin defamed the bakery, that the bakery is a fifth-generation family-owned business, and refer to “owners” of the bakery. That would seem to imply that even if the grandfather dies, the suit would survive because the business is not solely his, and the defamation was not solely of him. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/157 "2019-08-08T20:00:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The linked articles mostly mention that Oberlin defamed the bakery, that the bakery is a fifth-generation family-owned business, and refer to “owners” of the bakery. That would seem to imply that even if the grandfather dies, the suit would survive because the business is not solely his, and the defamation was not solely of him. I can’t figure out which Gibson is which because I’ve seen both Allyn and David Gibson referred to as the 90-plus year old owner (and I’m not going to spend much more time looking). But in any event, the plaintiffs were the bakery itself, David Gibson, and Allyn Gibson. According to this [site](https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/06/verdict-jury-awards-gibsons-bakery-11-million-against-oberlin-college/), the jury awarded $3 million to Allyn; $5.8 million to David, and $2.2 million to the bakery. If (and I don’t know this is the case) a defamation action disappears upon the death of the plaintiff and it is David that is sick, then that’s a pretty good chuck of the award. Assuming punitive damages are allocated proportionally, it might make a difference. Edit: Ok, I looked. Under Ohio statute (RC 2311.21), it looks like actions for “libel, slander, malicious prosecution, for a nuisance, or against a judge of a county court for misconduct in office” will “abate by the death of either party.” ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/158 "2019-08-08T20:14:35Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I could be wrong, but I don’t think appellate bonds have interest. I believe you are incorrect in this instance. Most of the articles I’ve read concerning the bond mention the 36 million as covering the judgement plus three years of interest for the expected appeal period. [Typical cite](https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/07/oberlin-college-posts-36-million-bond-to-secure-gibsons-bakery-judgment/) > [@](#): > > the court granted a stay of execution of the judgment conditioned on Oberlin College posting a bond in an amount just over $36 million, to secure the judgment plus three years of interest covering the anticipated time period of an appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/159 "2019-08-08T20:47:34Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I can’t figure out which Gibson is which because I’ve seen both Allyn and David Gibson referred to as the 90-plus year old owner (and I’m not going to spend much more time looking). But in any event, the plaintiffs were the bakery itself, David Gibson, and Allyn Gibson. According to this [site](https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/06/verdict-jury-awards-gibsons-bakery-11-million-against-oberlin-college/), the jury awarded $3 million to Allyn; $5.8 million to David, and $2.2 million to the bakery. > > If (and I don’t know this is the case) a defamation action disappears upon the death of the plaintiff and it is David that is sick, then that’s a pretty good chuck of the award. Assuming punitive damages are allocated proportionally, it might make a difference. > > Edit: Ok, I looked. Under Ohio statute (RC 2311.21), it looks like actions for “libel, slander, malicious prosecution, for a nuisance, or against a judge of a county court for misconduct in office” will “abate by the death of either party.” Ok, so they very could wait until Davids death and at least be out $5.8 million of the suit. Also if it does get thrown out and goes back for a new trial the jury wont be influenced by a 90 year old man sitting in the courtroom with a can and neck brace. Totally legal but doesnt put them in a good light either. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/160 "2019-08-09T00:39:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. > > IANAL, and I am glad I am not, because if I was, I might understand this and that would be upsetting to me. > > The linked articles mostly mention that Oberlin defamed the bakery, that the bakery is a fifth-generation family-owned business, and refer to “owners” of the bakery. That would seem to imply that even if the grandfather dies, the suit would survive because the business is not solely his, and the defamation was not solely of him. > > Regards, > > Shodan I haven’t been following it closely enough. Was the award for the bakery a defamation claim? Does a corporation under Ohio law have a reputation that is protected by defamation law? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070.md?page=9)