# Oberlin college and free speech debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070 "2019-06-25T22:50:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/161 "2019-08-09T00:44:19Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > If (and I don’t know this is the case) a defamation action disappears upon the death of the plaintiff and it is David that is sick, then that’s a pretty good chuck of the award. Assuming punitive damages are allocated proportionally, it might make a difference. > > Edit: Ok, I looked. Under Ohio statute (RC 2311.21), it looks like actions for “libel, slander, malicious prosecution, for a nuisance, or against a judge of a county court for misconduct in office” will “abate by the death of either party.” But at the moment it’s not an action, it’s a judgment. That’s a debt owing. I wouldn’t have thought a judgment for a fixed amount would abate because the plaintiff dies. I would think that only happens if the plaintiff dies and the defendant is successful on appeal, but I don’t know anything about Ohio law. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/162 "2019-08-09T00:51:04Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ok, so they very could wait until Davids death and at least be out $5.8 million of the suit Only if they also win the appeal, I think, but I don’t know Ohio law. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/163 "2019-08-09T10:48:01Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Not necessarily. Endowment funds are often under trust conditions, depending on the wishes of the donors. If I donate a million dollars (like I have that kind of cash) for the purpose of assisting students from Canada who attend Oberlin, that’s the only way the college can use that money. They’d be in breach of trust if they used it to pay the court judgment. > > So it depends how much of the endowments are available for general operating expenses, without restrictions. > > Nobody generally donates money to the “Oberlin Litigation Contingency Fund.” What, I get my name acknowledged on the cheque to the plaintiffs? > > I want to see the “Northern Piper Canada House” on campus, dammit! > > 😉 As an aside: The Anglican Church here (nsw.aus) had to pay out their trust fund in one case I know of here. The trustees objected, as I think they were legally bound to do, and it went to court, and the court said (as higher courts can) that the terms of the trust were set aside and the trust funds had to go to somebody else. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/164 "2019-08-09T14:22:39Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > I believe you are incorrect in this instance. Most of the articles I’ve read concerning the bond mention the 36 million as covering the judgement plus three years of interest for the expected appeal period. > > [Typical cite](https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/07/oberlin-college-posts-36-million-bond-to-secure-gibsons-bakery-judgment/) I may well be wrong (or maybe I misunderstood the question). The judgment itself is subject to interest. And I read that cite as saying that the bond was set an amount that is supposed to provide for the fact that, while the case is on appeal, the total amount owed will increase. But I understood the question as being whether the bond itself would somehow be subject to interest (I guess like using a loan or something). I guess my point is that the total amount owed should not change as a result of the appeal bond (but will change, due to interest, because of the delayed payment). > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But at the moment it’s not an action, it’s a judgment. That’s a debt owing. I wouldn’t have thought a judgment for a fixed amount would abate because the plaintiff dies. I would think that only happens if the plaintiff dies and the defendant is successful on appeal, but I don’t know anything about Ohio law. Good point. I don’t know. I know that a criminal proceeding is generally void ab initio if the defendant dies while the case is on direct appeal (and I think that’s what I was thinking of). I don’t know what happens in a civil case. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/165 "2019-08-10T18:15:24Z")
So (replying to posts above): If the two men die, Oberlin is off the hook for several million, but still has to pay the other penalties, right? So by waiting out the deaths, they can reduce their financial burden, but not escape it entirely? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/166 "2019-08-18T22:13:17Z")
[New story](https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/how-oberlin-college-screwed-up/#comments). ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/167 "2019-08-19T02:52:22Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [New story](https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/how-oberlin-college-screwed-up/#comments). “How many cats do you own?” should be a standard interview question for all institutions of learning. The “I need some muscle over here lady” from Missouri? I’ve got the over on six. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/168 "2019-08-19T07:53:30Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [New story](https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/how-oberlin-college-screwed-up/#comments). Somewhat related, Vlogger Benjamin Boyce has started to put up a series of [videos covering the events at Evergreen college a few years ago](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Wny9TstEM), many parallels between them, and a look at how cultish the environment can become. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/169 "2019-08-19T13:30:10Z")
Did the jury not put in a deadline of sorts, and that is why Oberlin can try to wait out David’s death? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/170 "2019-08-19T13:42:45Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > [New story](https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/how-oberlin-college-screwed-up/#comments). Generally, there are three types of losing defendants: 1. Those who are genuinely sorry, 2. Those who are only sorry that they got caught, 3. Those who aren’t even sorry at all. Oberlin seems to be placing itself squarely in Category 3#. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dogface1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface1977)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/171 "2019-08-21T20:28:59Z")
Now that the August 19 deadline for filing post-trial motions or an appeal has come and gone, does anyone know how or if Oberlin has responded? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/172 "2019-09-14T07:10:31Z")
Trial court just gave its decision on the two post - trial motions, denying Oberlin’s application for judgment notwithstanding verdict and motion for a new trial. Also denied plaintiffs’ application for prejudgment interest. Looks like appeal prioceedings don’t start until after those applications were decided. > **[Oberlin College denied new trial in Gibson’s Bakery case](https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/09/oberlin-college-denied-new-trial-in-gibsons-bakery-case/)** > > "the Court finds that the amount awarded is not manifestly excessive nor does it appear to be influenced by passion or prejudice" ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/173 "2020-05-31T05:20:52Z")
I was curious to see if there had been any further developments in this case, so went poking around. Looks like Oberlin College has filed an appeal, based on the Ohio state constitutional rights to freedom of expression. The Gibsons have filed a cross-appeal, challenging the cap on damages under Ohio law: [Gibson’s Bakery Files Cross-Appeal](https://oberlinreview.org/19730/news/gibsons-bakery-files-cross-appeal/). And, David Gibson died of pancreatic cancer in the fall. He’s survived by his father, Alyn Sr, and his son, Alyn Jr.: [David Gibson of Gibson’s Bakery dies; funeral arrangements set](https://chroniclet.com/news/179617/david-gibson-of-gibsons-bakery-dies-funeral-arrangements-set-updated/). Haven’t seen any discussion whether that will affect the appeal, as we speculated up-thread. And, earlier this month, the judge denied a motion by a news outlet for access to Facebook posts made by Alyn Gibson Jr., who was the clerk on duty the night of the incident and who chased the students when they left the store. He was not called as a witness and is not a party to the case, and his posts were not entered into evidence, so the judge ruled that his Facebook posts aren’t disclosable: [Judge denies media request to make Allyn Gibson Facebook posts public](https://chroniclet.com/news/212022/judge-denies-media-request-to-make-allyn-gibson-facebook-posts-public/) ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2022, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/174 "2022-04-01T16:50:15Z")
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but grind exceedingly fine. [Court rejects Oberlin College, Gibson’s Bakery appeals](https://chroniclet.com/news/297473/court-rejects-oberlin-college-gibsons-bakery-appeals/) > The Ninth District Court of Appeals in Akron has upheld all of Lorain County Common Pleas Judge John Miraldi’s rulings in the long-running civil case of Gibson’s Bakery versus Oberlin College. Oberlin still has the option to appeal to SCOTUS obviously, but I personally give that a slim chance of being approved for review. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/175 "2022-04-02T02:38:32Z")
I think an appeal lies from the Court of Appeals to the Ohio Supreme Court, but it’s by leave only. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/176 "2022-04-02T04:51:00Z")
I believe that the Federal courts are a separate path from states court in the org chart. [Introduction To The Federal Court System](https://www.justice.gov/usao/justice-101/federal-courts) > District Courts > Circuit Courts > Supreme Court of the United States But I’m prepared to be wrong considering that legal isn’t where my education lies. Or that I misunderstood what you were trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/177 "2022-04-02T05:07:23Z")
The Ninth District Court of Appeals is an intermediate state appellate court. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/178 "2022-04-02T05:25:22Z")
Ignorance fought, thanks. So there may be a few more episodes of this show than I was expecting. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/179 "2022-04-02T11:53:11Z")
Yes, this action is in the state courts, not the federal courts. Assuming it goes on appeal to the Ohio Supreme Court, I’m not aware of any aspect of the legal issues that would allow a subsequent application for cert, to the US Supreme Court. From what I’ve seen, it’s all a question of liability under state law, with no issue of federal law or US Constitutional law, so nothing to invoke the jurisdiction of the IS Supreme Court. (but I’ve not been following it real closely, so I may be wrong on the legal issues). ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2022, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070/180 "2022-04-02T19:38:53Z")
If you were a local, like I am, it would be much clearer that administrators from Oberlin College tried to influence/support the protesters and rapidly had to backtrack. This was intensely covered by local news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oberlin-college-and-free-speech-debate/836070.md?page=10)