# Obese Boy Scouts not allowed to attend Jamboree. Fat discrimination or common sense? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 16, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634 "2013-07-16T02:49:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/81 "2013-07-16T23:51:02Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Sure it is. But I’ll ask again, why criticize them for declining to serve kids with a BMI above 40 but you’re not criticizing Disney for excluding pregnant women from rides? Well, for one thing, Disney isn’t about building a better person. BSA will tell you that that is one of their core functions. I’m happy to hear that adults are being whacked by this policy, but I really think that they should accept any child that has doctor approval to attend. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/82 "2013-07-16T23:55:41Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I believe here is where the problem comes in. The scouts have specifically designed the entirety of their new Jamboree \*\*location \*\*in West Virgina to be “problematic for fatties.” > > Thus, the logic of excluding them entirely from attending. The same can be said of children with other problems such as paraplegia. And yet they are not excluded. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/83 "2013-07-17T00:00:24Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I believe here is where the problem comes in. The scouts have specifically designed the entirety of their new Jamboree \*\*location \*\*in West Virgina to be “problematic for fatties.” > . No, that’s completely wrong. The scouts have designed their new location to provide strenuous outdoor adventure, in keeping with the traditions of Scouting. Man, I was a fat Scout. There was stuff I couldn’t do. Nobody had to tell me I was too fat. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/84 "2013-07-17T00:40:53Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > If you’ve been rafting or on a zip line you would know that participation is restricted to people in good health, just like roller coasters. Plenty of morbidly obese people ride roller coasters. What amusement parks do you go to? > [@Troppus](#): > > Sure it is. But I’ll ask again, why criticize them for declining to serve kids with a BMI above 40 but you’re not criticizing Disney for excluding pregnant women from rides? Not all rides. According to one of Disney’s websites, only “thrill” rides are off limits. Everything else is completely acceptable. [http://disneyworldforum.disney.go.com/questions.aspx?qid=35681&cid=57](http://disneyworldforum.disney.go.com/questions.aspx?qid=35681&cid=57) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/85 "2013-07-17T00:42:53Z")
Maybe the BSA are concerned that obese scouts would be [too fat to rescue](http://www.nbcnews.com/health/too-fat-fly-growing-girth-grounds-5-000-patients-air-6C10485763). ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/86 "2013-07-17T00:49:43Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > There are no rapids in class 1. But there may be swimming and rescues if inexperienced rafters get dumped. Which requires a certain level of good health and physical agility. Semi-facetiously pointing out that the obese float like fucking corks - I could do the deep water part of my physio without pool noodles or float belts … and despite my ability to swim, and my training way back when with the Red Cross for lifesaving, I would be very difficult to actually drown. Why yes, I am obese. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/87 "2013-07-17T00:51:43Z")
There’s a link to another article about the financial problems that camp is having. I doubt they’re keen on doing this, when they’re already worried about getting enough customers going to it in the first place. It’s got to be a legal liability concern or the like, and there’s no easy way to test for fitness for something like this without pretty much just repeating the risky activity in the first place. Otara ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/88 "2013-07-17T00:59:37Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Don’t take it personally. Someone with a BMI of 40 will not be as easy to recover if he/she panics in the water. He or she will not be as likely to have the stamina to tread water or swim to safety. Well you got me there, yes it would be difficult to haul my fat disabled ass out of a river and back into a zode, but then again, I have movement issues that prevent me from being able to get into a zode in the first place. However I will point out that as obese and handicapped as I am, I can and have tread water for a hour as part of my water based physio. And I can’t move more than a step or two without crutches, and I can’t go more than a hundred feet without a wheelchair. [joint injuries, spinal stenosis and arthritis suck ass.] ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/89 "2013-07-17T01:05:28Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > No, that’s completely wrong. > The scouts have designed their new location to provide strenuous outdoor adventure, in keeping with the traditions of Scouting. What strenuous outdoor adventures are the paraplegics doing at the new Jamboree? Because they are not being excluded from attending (even though they are far more disabled than the fatties are). And what screening is the BSA doing to insure a skinny weakling with limp noodles for muscles doesn’t overexert himself attempting these strenuous outdoor activities and injure himself (possibly leading to a hazardous rescue)? Plenty of skinny kids are quite unfit, and could get in serious trouble if they tried a truly strenuous outdoor activity. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/90 "2013-07-17T01:16:11Z")
I bet being a paraplegic is more work than half the fatties could manage. Your second point is intriguing. Do you know anybody like that? Or is it just some sort of random hypothetical? Reason I ask, I knew a guy who used to hurt himself practicing kung fu. He was skinny but not scrawny, and overall not unfit. Just clumsy and inept. Dude kept at it until he was good enough at kung fu to actually hurt himself. No medical screening would have kept him from hurting himself at scout camp. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/91 "2013-07-17T01:31:48Z")
The medical forms and requirements are posted here: > **[Annual Health and Medical Record](https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/ahmr/)** > > Download the forms to complete your Annual Health and Medical Record for Scouting events, high adventure bases, and more. > [@](#): > > Part C is the physical exam that is required for participants in any event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, for all high-adventure base participants, or when the nature of the activity is strenuous and demanding. Service projects or work weekends may fit this description. Part C is to be completed and signed by a certified and licensed health-care provider—physician (MD or DO), nurse practitioner, or physician assistant. It is important to note that the height/weight limits must be strictly adhered to when the event will take the unit more than 30 minutes away from an emergency vehicle, accessible roadway, or when the program requires it, such as backpacking trips, high-adventure activities, and conservation projects in remote areas. So they make EVERYONE get a physician sign off for the strenuous stuff. The risk factors that they are watching out for that includes weight: > [@](#): > > Risk Factors > Based on the vast experience of the medical community, the BSA has identified the following risk factors that may limit your participation in various outdoor adventures. > Excessive body weight > Heart disease > Hypertension (high blood pressure) > Diabetes > Seizures > Lack of appropriate immunizations > Asthma > Allergies/anaphylaxis > Muscular/skeletal injuries > Psychiatric/psychological and emotional difficulties Now - why do they make space for paraplegics at Bechtel and the National Jamboree? They can probably get electric carts and other means of support for a limited number of physically handicapped participants. They can NOT, however, provide that for everyone who is out of shape. Bechtel is HUGE, with a lot of hills and long walks to the events, activities, etc. The BSA is not running shuttles at this event - they expect the Scouts to hoof it. 40,000 Scouts are there at the camp, during a pretty good heat wave. The BSA takes kids out in the woods, away from immediate medical help, and to help lessen risks they have put in place some requirements. I am sure that these are a combination of legal and medical documents designed to mitigate risk. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/92 "2013-07-17T01:43:53Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Your second point is intriguing. > Do you know anybody like that? > Or is it just some sort of random hypothetical? No, not a random hypothetical at all. It’s actually a pretty common sight in the hunter ring: skinny girl who looks good on a horse (at least when it’s not moving much), but is sliding all over the horse when working at speed because she lacks the core strength necessary for stability. (The better riders do Pilates and other such non-mounted exercises specifically to strengthen their core muscles so they will be more effective in the saddle.). The floppy rider may be thin, but she’s unfit, and it shows in her riding. Thin but unfit isn’t all that rare. It’s just not noticed much in everyday life since daily life in the USA really doesn’t require all that much fitness. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/93 "2013-07-17T01:50:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A kid in a wheelchair is going to be excluded too. Life is harsh. ☹ - don’t think this is correct actually.\* > [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > I stopped being fat and got shredded when I received nasty comments. Bullying helped me go from a morbidly obese fatty to a bodybuilder. Do you mean _actual_, competing bodybuilder or “bodybuilder”; aka someone who goes to the gym a lot and buys a ton of supplements? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/94 "2013-07-17T02:01:08Z")
People are focusing too much on swimming. Fat people float. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/95 "2013-07-17T02:01:52Z")
We all float down here. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/96 "2013-07-17T02:43:28Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/97 "2013-07-17T02:59:09Z")
They are evaluating people on a case-by-case basis, for BMIs 30-39. A BMI of 40, however, is far beyond a chubby or even a fat kid. 40 is the cutoff point for Class III severely obese, and it’s the point where they stop classifying how obese you are. For perspective, even in our not-particularly-slim nation, only 2% of men and 4% of women have a BMI over 40. There is no chance of someone with a BMI of 40 being “pudgy but strong,” or “big but healthy.” We are talking about the tip-top of the weight scale. > [@artemis](#): > > No, not a random hypothetical at all. It’s actually a pretty common sight in the hunter ring: skinny girl who looks good on a horse (at least when it’s not moving much), but is sliding all over the horse when working at speed because she lacks the core strength necessary for stability. (The better riders do Pilates and other such non-mounted exercises specifically to strengthen their core muscles so they will be more effective in the saddle.). The floppy rider may be thin, but she’s unfit, and it shows in her riding. > > Thin but unfit isn’t all that rare. It’s just not noticed much in everyday life since daily life in the USA really doesn’t require all that much fitness. True, but we are talking about more than not being particular muscular. Obesity comes with a host of health risks, including things like stroke that can happen quite suddenly and may not be easy to predict. There is also an increase in things like heat sensitivity that a doctor might not find in a general fitness evaluation. Furthermore, that level of obesity also can complicate rescue efforts and require specialized equipment. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/98 "2013-07-17T03:20:29Z")
> [@rEVOLutionary](#): > > Maybe it’s just me, but I only stopped being fat and got shredded when I received nasty comments and realized it was time for a change. Bullying helped me go from a morbidly obese fatty to a bodybuilder. I wouldn’t call it the only motivator, but my daughter’s comments also added impetus to my own weight loss motivation ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/99 "2013-07-17T03:40:06Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > This makes a lot of sense if the purpose of working up to going to a jamboree is to have a better time at the jamboree. > > This does not make sense if the purpose of working up to going to a jamboree is to avoid being prohibited from attending the jamboree, for the obvious solution at troop level would be to discourage or fail to encourage very fat children from joining in the first place, so that there would be no problem of a child being left behind when it comes to jamboree time. > > Scouting should be inclusionary rather than exclusionary. It should help children develop, rather than socially cull them. But then, if somebody is always making exceptions for you, and workarounds, and allowances, and setting up easier activities - when will there ever be a reason or a need to lose weight? Don’t you, at some point, have to say “enough is enough”? And do remember - we are not talking pudgy, or cuddly here. We are talking morbidly / dangerously obese. As mentioned - only 2% of the total population hits that scale. At some point, doesn’t there need to be a reason to lose the weight? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634/100 "2013-07-17T04:18:14Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > For perspective, **even in our not-particularly-slim nation** , only 2% of men and 4% of women have a BMI over 40. There is no chance of someone with a BMI of 40 being “pudgy but strong,” or “big but healthy.” We are talking about the tip-top of the weight scale. (my bolding) I think this bears repeating. I think some people are imagining something quite different from the reality of the situation here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obese-boy-scouts-not-allowed-to-attend-jamboree-fat-discrimination-or-common-sense/663634.md?page=6)