# Obi-Wan: Hero of the Galactic Empire. (spoilers, TV-permissible words) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079 "2005-05-23T13:14:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/21 "2005-05-23T15:42:47Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > WHy does everyone presume everything would be hunky-dory if he killed Vader? The Emperor is still alive and there are only two Jedi left (not inlcuding Luke). True, but Vader is supposed to be the most powerful ever, blah blah, and with everyone strong/trained in the Force dead, it would take a little while to identify, train, and subvert a new dark apprentice. And I still don’t buy all this “not walk near the lava” arguments. Obi-Wan is two steps away from Vader. Take one step, _tap him in the head with your frickin’ laser-beam sword_. It’s not like that would take a lot of effort. As either a friend or a combatant, Obi-Wan had pleny of reasons to off Vader. I can buy the “using the Force to hide the twins,” but to what end? Luke doesn’t get involved until even Yoda thinks he’s too old to be trained. Leia doesn’t get invovled at all until she’s outed as a traitor, but until then, she’s been openly decrying the Empire as a dissenting Senator. And Vader is right next to her and still clouded from recognizing her? Bah. Still a poor job of hiding by the most decorated member of the Oder of the Empire (three Wrinkle Clusters, two Golden Artificial Hands), Obi-Wan Kenobi. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/22 "2005-05-23T15:45:34Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > I believe the thought is that the lightsaber cauterizes. There was little blood in the several amputations depicted. Wasn’t there a little bloodspray when Darth Maul got cut in half? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/23 "2005-05-23T15:47:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Not that a small exception to this rule might have made for a better 20 years for the trillions of folks in the galaxy…but Obi-Wan doesn’t even want to get his toes wet in the waters of the Dark Side. Only a Sith thinks in absolutes ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/24 "2005-05-23T15:51:14Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > I think Obi-Wan realized this, and lived the life of a hermit in the desert of Tattooine out of an overwhelming sense of guilt that he could have stopped him or done more to help. The emperor would’ve just found another apprentice had Vader been killed. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/25 "2005-05-23T15:55:13Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Wasn’t there a little bloodspray when Darth Maul got cut in half? Not sure, maybe, but his viscera didn’t come tumbling out of his torso as you might expect. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/26 "2005-05-23T15:59:26Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > The emperor would’ve just found another apprentice had Vader been killed. From where? Every other Force-adept known in the galaxy was dead at Vader’s hands. It’d be years before another was prepared. And either way, the new one would never be as powerful as Vader. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/27 "2005-05-23T16:04:58Z")
As far as Obi-Wan not training Luke, I’d say from his telling of Vader’s story in Ep. IV that he blames himself for Anakin’s weakness, and probably fears that any Jedi he trains would have a vulnerability to the Dark Side. ---
**Author:** ![Arwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Arwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arwin)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/28 "2005-05-23T16:10:32Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > True, but Vader is supposed to be the most powerful ever, blah blah, and with everyone strong/trained in the Force dead, it would take a little while to identify, train, and subvert a new dark apprentice. Obviously he considered him worth quite a lot, coming over personally to pick him up and fix him with some artificial limbs and retro-style exoskeleton. > [@](#): > > And I still don’t buy all this “not walk near the lava” arguments. Obi-Wan is two steps away from Vader. I think it’s very clear that the walk near lava aspect of it is not the reason. Obi-Wan choses not to finish him. > [@](#): > > As either a friend or a combatant, Obi-Wan had pleny of reasons to off Vader. And equally plenty not to. He could have quite fairly assumed that Anakin would slip into the lava and die, not to mention not survive the third-degree full body burn and severed limbs (though those amputations I assume were nicely burnt shot - this used to be quite a popular way to close big gaping wounds if anyone remembers). He warned him plenty not to take that final leap, he should never kill a defenseless foe, Anakin had used up pretty much all his credit and a good bit to spare by attacking his wife, and certainly by killing all the younglings and alleging himself to the emperor. And yet at the same time it was very painful for him to watch his loved apprentice and friend die, or having to kill him by his own hand. > [@](#): > > I can buy the “using the Force to hide the twins,” but to what end? Luke doesn’t get involved until even Yoda thinks he’s too old to be trained. Leia doesn’t get invovled at all until she’s outed as a traitor, but until then, she’s been openly decrying the Empire as a dissenting Senator. And Vader is right next to her and still clouded from recognizing her? I think that could be made more likely because she does not have the Force. I’ve so far had the feeling that the Sith and Jedi can only detect people with the force, mostly. > [@](#): > > Bah. Still a poor job of hiding by the most decorated member of the Oder of the Empire (three Wrinkle Clusters, two Golden Artificial Hands), Obi-Wan Kenobi. It’s pretty much implied that he did a lot of work behind the scenes. All in all, there aren’t many big story continuity problems, and I think there are quite a few very nice lines that run quite well all the way through the 2 trilogies. My main problem with the first three is that as they got more special effects to play around with, they had too much opportunity to lose sight of the acting and pay too much attention to the visual parts of it. In IV-VI, they had to rely more on the characters and the acting, and were forced to be a bit more skimpy with the effects. By episode III, no such limitations existed anymore. They’ll master these new possibilities some day though. In the meantime, it’s not all bad. I’m looking forward to seeing the old SWs once more. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/29 "2005-05-23T16:12:22Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > From where? > > Every other Force-adept known in the galaxy was dead at Vader’s hands. It’d be years before another was prepared. > > And either way, the new one would never be as powerful as Vader. From the perspective of the Emperor, so what? He got what he wanted - control of the Galaxy. Not to mention the habit the Sith had of killing off one another when there was nobody else to fight. I think that the emperor would have been quite happy to have Darth dead. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/30 "2005-05-23T16:18:24Z")
> [@Arwin](#): > > My main problem with the first three is that as they got more special effects to play around with, they had too much opportunity to lose sight of the acting and pay too much attention to the visual parts of it. In IV-VI, they had to rely more on the characters and the acting, and were forced to be a bit more skimpy with the effects. By episode III, no such limitations existed anymore. > > They’ll master these new possibilities some day though. In the meantime, it’s not all bad. I’m looking forward to seeing the old SWs once more. I actually think that the problem with the first three is that the characters are not as compelling. Think about the original trilogy, Luke plucked out of nowhere to become a hero of the empire. Han, a bit of a scoundrel, forced to the better side of his nature. Leia, royalty yet in trouble. There is a real comradarie and a there is some empathy with the characters. Looking at the new trilogy, these are not common people, these are special people, Jedi’s, Senator, Royalty/ They are harder to connect with. Anakin’s story is not as easy to connect with. The new trilogy’s emphasis is very big, a big story about important people, throughout. The original is about smaller people, common people, it is a smaller story that grows into a bigger one. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/31 "2005-05-23T16:48:57Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > I can buy the “using the Force to hide the twins,” but to what end? Luke doesn’t get involved until even Yoda thinks he’s too old to be trained. Leia doesn’t get invovled at all until she’s outed as a traitor, but until then, she’s been openly decrying the Empire as a dissenting Senator. And Vader is right next to her and still clouded from recognizing her? Bah. Still a poor job of hiding by the most decorated member of the Oder of the Empire (three Wrinkle Clusters, two Golden Artificial Hands), Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yoda’s “He is too old” seems to be a standard line for the Jedi. Yoda is baiting Luke to see if his commitment is deep enough for the hardships he is about to undertake. This is consistent with the whole Zen Master vibe Yoda has. And what do you mean Leia’s not involved in the Rebellion? The very first time she is seen in Star Wars she’s smuggling plans to the Death Star! And she’s shot, imprisoned, tortured, has her home planet blown up, and sentenced to death for her troubles. And yes he was standing right next to her and didn’t know who she was. He wasn’t looking for her because he didn’t know she existed. And why do you say it was a poor job of hiding by Obi Wan? They never found him until he broke cover. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/32 "2005-05-23T18:07:35Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > From the perspective of the Emperor, so what? He got what he wanted - control of the Galaxy. Not to mention the habit the Sith had of killing off one another when there was nobody else to fight. I think that the emperor would have been quite happy to have Darth dead. In one of the latest original-trilogy commentaries, Lucas also makes the point that Darth Vader (in the suit) is not as awesome as Anakin Skywalker (the mostly whole man). Since the Force is something that permeates all _living_ things, having a third of his body replaced by machines really weakened Vader’s powers. I think the implication is that Palpatine wants Luke partially because his apprentice isn’t as awesome as he had hoped he would be. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/33 "2005-05-23T20:46:50Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > And I still don’t buy all this “not walk near the lava” arguments. Obi-Wan is two steps away from Vader. Take one step, _tap him in the head with your frickin’ laser-beam sword_. It’s not like that would take a lot of effort. Hell, if he wanted to play it safe, it would’ve taken about a pinkie’s worth of Force Push to send Vader’s remains into the molten deep. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/34 "2005-05-23T21:26:16Z")
Isn’t Obi-Wan’s refusal to slaughter an innocent enemy supposed to be a mirror to Anakin’s slaughter of Dooku in the first act? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/35 "2005-05-23T21:32:05Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Isn’t Obi-Wan’s refusal to slaughter an innocent enemy supposed to be a mirror to Anakin’s slaughter of Dooku in the first act? Sure, but that doesn’t make it logical **or** smart! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/36 "2005-05-23T21:46:37Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Isn’t Obi-Wan’s refusal to slaughter an innocent enemy supposed to be a mirror to Anakin’s slaughter of Dooku in the first act? Yep exactly… and also Windu’s willingness to kill an unarmed Palpatine, which convinced Anakin that the Jedi were just out of power (they didn’t live to their own ideals). Obi-Wan didn’t kill an unarmed Anakin because it is against the Jedi Code. That’s why Anakin says it was wrong for him to kill the disarmed (literally) Dooku in the beginning. It was to show that Obi-Wan was pure. He didn’t tempt the dark side like Anakin and even Windu. He disarmed Anakin and left him to the Force. He probably assumed Anakin would die on that rock (he had no reason to suspect the Emperor would feel that Anakin was in trouble and come to resque him. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/37 "2005-05-23T21:59:41Z")
This argument is a bit like the “why didn’t Yoda just push Anakin and Obi Wan out of the way and kill Dooku” argument from ATOC. First of all, it’s entirely possible that Obi Wan just MADE A MISTAKE. I mean, let’s face it, he was under a heck of a lot of stress. He might well have made a poor choice. That doesn’t mean he was a sucky character, or that the movie sucked because of it. Aside from that, many other fine points have been made in this thread. And, let’s keep in mind that Obi Wan’s actions ultimately led directly to the destruction of the Sith. So perhaps the force was with him in a way more subtle than he, or we, could understand. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/38 "2005-05-23T22:17:40Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > And, let’s keep in mind that Obi Wan’s actions ultimately led directly to the destruction of the Sith. They also ultimately led directly to the destruction of Alderaan, too. Just to keep the scales balanced and all… ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/39 "2005-05-23T23:12:56Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Obi-Wan didn’t kill an **unarmed** Anakin because it is against the Jedi Code. HEE hee hee! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079/40 "2005-05-23T23:21:59Z")
The pun may have been half intended ;). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obi-wan-hero-of-the-galactic-empire-spoilers-tv-permissible-words/305079.md?page=3)