# Objectification, Visual Aspects of Sexuality, and the "What % of Women Beautiful" Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408 "2019-01-25T18:19:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/61 "2019-01-29T11:09:27Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > … I probably got it mixed-up somehow. Yup. You did. Not only not the same post but not even the same poster. You got it very mixed up. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/62 "2019-01-29T12:02:17Z")
According to this [source](https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity), 67% of American women are fat. Are 67% of American women crying in their cornflakes, pining for male attention? Are these women all virginal spinsters who have never been in a sexual or romantic relationship? No, of course not. The overwhelming majority of women are in relationship with someone who thinks they are attractive. Personally, almost all the overweight women I know are married. Thus, the notion that fat women are _objectively_ unattractive is simply not borne out by facts. At any rate, a lot of guys spout off about what they deem to be ugly and unattractive when they’re with friends, but they are nonetheless drawn to women with those traits (remember **Incubus**?)). I think this can be chalked up to two things. 1) The desire to appear as a “high status” male–the kind of guy who only dates women who look like fashion models since he has the financial and sexual wherewithal to make that happen. Hating on a subpopulation of women’s looks is what some men do to prop up their status-anxious egos. 2) It is very easy to overlook the fact that beauty is a multimetric index. If Cindy Crawford gained fifty pounds, would she suddenly become hideous? Or would she still look quite good, since extra weight doesn’t blot out physical grace, sensuality, hair lusciousness, smooth skin, or facial symmetry? (Not to mention, an extra 50 lbs might actually enhance one’s appeal in certain areas, like in boobage and bootiage). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/63 "2019-01-29T12:13:48Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > There’s nothing morally better about picking a woman for her smarts (that she has no control about) rather than for her physical appearance (that at least she can improve significantly). What did women who _aren’t_ smart do to deserve being scorned? Do you assume that, contrarily to women who feel ugly, they don’t feel inadequate over their lack of intelligence, won’t suffer from being judged for this reason? Oh, but women can, and are often expected to, appear stupider than they are. It pays to make men feel that they are smarter than you; it pays to make them feel that they are rescuing you; it definitely pays to make them feel like li’l ol’ you would never ever be a threat to them. It took me a long time to learn how to play that game, but here’s some news: when I do? I don’t admire the guy I’m making feel like a knight in clanging, shiny armor\*, I either pity or despise him. - who btw would be pretty useless. Real warriors’ armor doesn’t shine. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/64 "2019-01-29T12:39:43Z")
> [@johnod](#): > > No fat shaming in my post. > > Is a dwarf short? > Are basketball players tall? Doubling down will earn you a warning. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/65 "2019-01-29T14:01:21Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > The Dope in general doesn’t have as much discussion as I would like of feminism and patriarchy and how it works and what sexual fairness would actually consist of and so on You really think malegazey objectifying poll threads are doing anything positive to address that? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/66 "2019-01-29T14:15:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You really think malegazey objectifying poll threads are doing anything positive to address that? Not helping: “yeah, bro, lots of wimmins are hott!” _May_ contribute to an overall discussion: “It appears, based on an admittedly self-selected poll’s outcome and a probably-flawed magazine article that inspired it, that a far lower percent of women think themselves beautiful than the percent of women considered beautiful by men. Is this part & parcel of women internalizing a harshly critical / insecure sense of physical and visual okayness? Or something else?” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/67 "2019-01-29T14:39:46Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > So, I pretty much said what I had to say in the other thread. But what they hey, I’ll say it again here. The premise seemed to be “only 4% of women think they are beautiful. That’s not enough, I bet more are really beautiful and that will make women feel better about themselves”. Or something like that. > > But “only 4% of women think they are beautiful” isn’t a problem that needs to be solved. The problem that needs to be solved is that women feel they need to be beautiful to be valued. Saying, “hey, it’s not 4% it’s really 15%” does absolutely nothing to help that. Odds are, you aren’t in the 15% after all. And you may know perfectly well that you aren’t physically beautiful. > > So the whole thread seemed broken from the start. And then a bunch of guys coming in and really objectifying women (which the OP didn’t do, but a lot of the responses did) just made it worse. This. And even if the conclusion was “it’s not 4%, it’s 80%,” it wouldn’t be any less broken IMHO. It’s still crapping on the remaining 20% - and really crapping on everyone who wonders if they _might_ be in that 20%. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/68 "2019-01-29T14:56:01Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Not helping: “yeah, bro, lots of wimmins are hott!” > > _May_ contribute to an overall discussion: “It appears, based on an admittedly self-selected poll’s outcome and a probably-flawed magazine article that inspired it, that a far lower percent of women think themselves beautiful than the percent of women considered beautiful by men. Is this part & parcel of women internalizing a harshly critical / insecure sense of physical and visual okayness? Or something else?” Which side of that line does “MEN ONLY - a poll on how misguided many women are as to how hot they are” fall, for you? Because I see zero evidence of your second & third sentences in the OP or early responses to that thread. “I would be interested to see if that differs from the perception of men” is not that discussion. It’s just privileging the male gaze without even pretension to anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/69 "2019-01-29T15:47:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Does it count if you see her face in a crowded place? Forget it, dude - she’ll never be with you. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > And look where that’s gotten us.\* > > \*speaking as someone who sees Ohioans on a daily basis. > [@johnod](#): > > To the top of the evolutionary chain/mountain. But Ohio is flat! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/70 "2019-01-29T17:23:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > According to this [source](https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity), 67% of American women are fat. > > Are 67% of American women crying in their cornflakes, pining for male attention? Are these women all virginal spinsters who have never been in a sexual or romantic relationship? > > No, of course not. The overwhelming majority of women are in relationship with someone who thinks they are attractive. Personally, almost all the overweight women I know are married. Thus, the notion that fat women are _objectively_ unattractive is simply not borne out by facts. > > At any rate, a lot of guys spout off about what they deem to be ugly and unattractive when they’re with friends, but they are nonetheless drawn to women with those traits (remember **Incubus**?)). I think this can be chalked up to two things. 1) The desire to appear as a “high status” male–the kind of guy who only dates women who look like fashion models since he has the financial and sexual wherewithal to make that happen. Hating on a subpopulation of women’s looks is what some men do to prop up their status-anxious egos. 2) It is very easy to overlook the fact that beauty is a multimetric index. If Cindy Crawford gained fifty pounds, would she suddenly become hideous? Or would she still look quite good, since extra weight doesn’t blot out physical grace, sensuality, hair lusciousness, smooth skin, or facial symmetry? (Not to mention, an extra 50 lbs might actually enhance one’s appeal in certain areas, like in boobage and bootiage). There’s “fat” and there’s _fat_. It’s objectively true that in current american society women who are over 400lbs are considered unattractive by the vast majority of men, unless they got to that weight by being a steel-boned terminator or something. Men of that weight are also considered widely unattractive by all, so it’s not actually all that sexist at that level - after a certain level of obesity it pretty much trumps all. Of course where the actual line is varies from observer to observer, and there are various mitigating factors such as how one feels about the person personally. But to state that fat has no impact on appearance is to ignore a large subset of overweight people. (In case you’re wondering, I’m coming at this from the position of a person who’s pretty much across the line. So the goal here is not to fat-shame, but to grumblingly iterate that yeah it _does_ make a difference!) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/71 "2019-01-29T17:35:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Which side of that line does “MEN ONLY - a poll on how misguided many women are as to how hot they are” fall, for you? Because I see zero evidence of your second & third sentences in the OP or early responses to that thread. “I would be interested to see if that differs from the perception of men” is not that discussion. It’s just privileging the male gaze without even pretension to anything else. I think that’s a reasonable interpretation, sure. My participation in the thread was a result of me interpreting the whole thing in the second-example sense though. Do I think there’s a continuing problem with the privileged male gaze and the continued designation of women as sexual eye candy? Hell yeah. Maybe I should not have participated. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/72 "2019-01-29T17:51:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This. > > And even if the conclusion was “it’s not 4%, it’s 80%,” it wouldn’t be any less broken IMHO. It’s still crapping on the remaining 20% - and really crapping on everyone who wonders if they _might_ be in that 20%. I don’t see anything pathological or sad about a woman who believes she isn’t in that 80% but who manages not to give a fuck because she doesn’t care about being beautiful. So I gotta say, while there were some objectifying jerkish comments in that thread, I also felt my eyes rolling in response to the comments coming from the other side. It would be great if beauty could be taken off its pedestal and viewed as just another adjective rather than one essential for self-esteem. By constantly assuring women they are beautiful, we are implicitly telling everyone that beauty is an important attritbute. It really isn’t. Even the most enlightened, progressive people push this message. The very first thing my therapist told me when I revealed to her that I had terrible self-esteem was, “But you are so beautiful!” By the next session, I summoned up the ovaries to tell her to STFU about “beauty”. I was down on myself because I felt stupid and a number of other things. My looks weren’t even on my radar. If I had a daughter, I would try to instill in her a sense of adequacy…a sense of being “good enough”.I would assure her she is smart enough, charming enough, and yes, pretty enough. But the emphasis would be on the “enough” rather than on a particular superlative. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/73 "2019-01-29T17:53:11Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I think that’s a reasonable interpretation, sure. > > My participation in the thread was a result of me interpreting the whole thing in the second-example sense though. > > Do I think there’s a continuing problem with the privileged male gaze and the continued designation of women as sexual eye candy? Hell yeah. > > Maybe I should not have participated. I’d say there’s nothing wrong with you participating in the thread you thought you saw, or wanted, rather than the thread that was actually there. But better, perhaps, to actually start those threads, worded as you did, rather than feeding the machine. Although, I have to ask - the name of the OP wasn’t a red flag for you? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/74 "2019-01-29T20:41:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Although, I have to ask - the name of the OP wasn’t a red flag for you? :smack: Honestly, I’d seen the other thread first, saw this one, and conceptualized it as a branch discussion. And no, I didn’t really pay attention to who had started it, I have to confess. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/75 "2019-01-29T23:29:35Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > There’s “fat” and there’s _fat_. It’s objectively true that in current american society women who are over 400lbs are considered unattractive by the vast majority of men, unless they got to that weight by being a steel-boned terminator or something. Men of that weight are also considered widely unattractive by all, so it’s not actually all that sexist at that level - after a certain level of obesity it pretty much trumps all. But the vast majority of fat women are not 400 lbs. You are using extreme individuals to refute my point about the average population (like the 96% of women who don’t think they are beautiful). It would be like if I argued that “Earning only a five-figure income makes a male objectively unattractive” is an incorrect statement and you countered with, “But most women aren’t attracted to being broke, homeless guys!” At any rate, just because the majority of a population are not attracted to something doesn’t make that something “objectively unattractive.” To whit, most people are not attracted to sleeve tattoos, and yet I’ve never seen someone wearing sleeves who was without a significant other. > [@](#): > > Of course where the actual line is varies from observer to observer, and there are various mitigating factors such as how one feels about the person personally. But to state that fat has no impact on appearance is to ignore a large subset of overweight people. I never said fat has no impact on appearance. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/76 "2019-01-29T23:53:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But the vast majority of fat women are not 400 lbs. You are using extreme individuals to refute my point about the average population (like the 96% of women who don’t think they are beautiful). It would be like if I argued that “Earning only a five-figure income makes a male objectively unattractive” is an incorrect statement and you countered with, “But most women aren’t attracted to being broke, homeless guys!” I am quite confident that when some charming person busts out “fat girls are ugly, hyuk hyuk” they aren’t talking about a technically overweight Cindy Crawford + 50lbs. They’re talking about some extreme stereotype that exists mostly in their heads. Which means that when you bust out the counterargument “the majority of women are at least pleasantly plump and are still appealing” _you’re_ the one who’s missing the point! (Admittedly the point in question rarely has much value, but still.) > [@monstro](#): > > At any rate, just because the majority of a population are not attracted to something doesn’t make that something “objectively unattractive.” To whit, most people are not attracted to sleeve tattoos, and yet I’ve never seen someone wearing sleeves who was without a significant other. Couldn’t you find a better way to refute that than with such a hole-filled anecdote? “I’ve never seen”? Seriously? I fear that my impulse towards pedantry is drawing me down a conversational path I don’t like. I disagree that misunderstanding what a person means by “fat” is a good way to refute that fat people are inherently repulsive (or whatever) - that’s me disputing a bad counterargument. But I don’t particularly want to defend the position you were arguing against either - I _don’t_ think that plump women are unattractive. I concede that it’s possible to be fat enough to deter me, but I recognize that goes both ways - there are _reasons_ I’m single. I don’t think that person is a bad person for being overweight - even _really_ overweight. I just recognize that they’re going to fall afoul of society’s cruel standards of beauty even more certainly than everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/77 "2019-01-30T00:46:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I am quite confident that when some charming person busts out “fat girls are ugly, hyuk hyuk” they aren’t talking about a technically overweight Cindy Crawford + 50lbs. They’re talking about some extreme stereotype that exists mostly in their heads. Which means that when you bust out the counterargument “the majority of women are at least pleasantly plump and are still appealing” _you’re_ the one who’s missing the point! I don’t know where you get this “confident” assertion from. A brief perusal of the internet shows me that there are [plenty](https://www.reddit.com/r/fatlogic/comments/7wl6di/amy_schumer_is_not_fat/) of people who are ever-so-eager to call a woman “fat” when she’s [just](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/10/jessica-simpson-brushes-off-fat-comments_n_1414638.html) a [little](https://www.thewrap.com/trump-supporters-shame-lena-dunham-over-weight-loss-comment/) [overweight](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11941753). [And even when she isn’t](https://stylecaster.com/fox-news-keith-ablow-called-michelle-obama-fat/). > [@](#): > > Couldn’t you find a better way to refute that than with such a hole-filled anecdote? “I’ve never seen”? Seriously? My anecdote is not any more laughable than your “confident” assertion that most men only reserve “fat” for the morbidly obese. I fail to see why I should give your assertion more credence than what I have seen with my own eyes. > [@](#): > > I fear that my impulse towards pedantry is drawing me down a conversational path I don’t like. I disagree that misunderstanding what a person means by “fat” is a good way to refute that fat people are inherently repulsive (or whatever) - that’s me disputing a bad counterargument. But I don’t particularly want to defend the position you were arguing against either - I _don’t_ think that plump women are unattractive. I concede that it’s possible to be fat enough to deter me, but I recognize that goes both ways - there are _reasons_ I’m single. I don’t think that person is a bad person for being overweight - even _really_ overweight. I just recognize that they’re going to fall afoul of society’s cruel standards of beauty even more certainly than everybody else. Well, I didn’t say anything about anyone being “bad”. My only point is that it is ludicrous to state that “fat women are objectively unattractive” when the facts don’t support that. Now, if you want to dissect what kind of “fat women” was being referenced in that statement, you should ask **clairobscur** for clarification. But I don’t think my argument is wrong just because I’ve decided to interpret his statement literally. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/78 "2019-01-30T00:49:32Z")
As you like. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/79 "2019-01-31T06:14:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Well, I didn’t say anything about anyone being “bad”. My only point is that it is ludicrous to state that “fat women are objectively unattractive” when the facts don’t support that. Now, if you want to dissect what kind of “fat women” was being referenced in that statement, you should ask **clairobscur** for clarification. Reread my post. I never wrote that fat women were objectively unattractive. I even pointed at the variations in the standards of beauty over time and space. What I wrote is that fat women are objectively considered unattractive in current western societies. Are you arguing that fat women _aren’t_ considered unattractive? But it seems that from my whole post, several people read only the words “objectively” and “unattractive” in close proximity and, ignoring the other 14 lines (I counted) of text, decided that it meant pretty much the exact opposite of what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408/80 "2019-01-31T11:48:47Z")
> [@clairiobscur](#): > > What I wrote is that fat women are objectively considered unattractive in current western societies. Are you arguing that fat women _aren’t_ considered unattractive? Yes, it is popular to bash fat people in the US. However, I don’t know about this “western” stuff. People have a tendency to leave out Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean when they use that label, and I don’t generally think of of these places as being particularly unwelcoming to the zaftig feminine form. And of course, in my own culture (African American), thicc women are esteemed. No, not 400 lb women, but definitely the woman who has some junk in her trunk and who jiggles in all the right places. If you mean “European” when you use the word “western”, then I suppose that is the case. But in that case, it’s also a fair assessment to say that women of Subsaharan African ancestry are also “objectively considered unattractive.” I know I can’t spend five minutes on the internet without hearing some neckbeard express his disdain for black women’s looks. The question is, what do we do with this assessment? If it’s okay to deconstruct black women hate, then is it not acceptable to do the same with negative attitudes toward fat women? Is it not possible that some of this “fat women are ugly!” stuff is laden with something more than just guys liking what they like? I appreciate your clarification, though. I did misconstrue what you said, and I apologize for that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectification-visual-aspects-of-sexuality-and-the-what-of-women-beautiful-thread/828408.md?page=5)