# Objecting to religious symbolism in public places. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676 "2003-08-17T00:25:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/41 "2003-08-20T05:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > So what if anybody was able to put up a temporary banner at someplace like city hall, or a courthouse, or state capitol, what would be your opinion on that? In the middle of a courthouse? I think it would make for a pretty cluttered courthouse, and would probably not be in keeping with the dignity of the court. Probably none of the places you’ve listed would be suitable as a “free speech forum”. This is not to say there would be any _constitutional_ problem with such, if the forum were genuinely open to all with fair rules of access; only that it would wind up being awfully tacky to have the state capitol festooned with everything from “John 3:16” to “Gay Pride!” to “Go Muskrats! Central High Roolz!” > [@](#): > > Hmmm, I was thinking that a government official putting up a religious display could be thought of in the same was as a radio talk show host with the disclaimer “The views expressed are not necessarily those of this radio station, it’s staff or management…” Are we talking about a government official putting a religious symbol on his desk or on the wall of his personal office? I don’t think a “disclaimer” will get very far with a two-and-half-ton block of stone in the middle of the rotunda, though. ---
**Author:** ![cajela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cajela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cajela)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/42 "2003-08-20T06:26:04Z")
How about history? Lots of stuff was put up before society got quite so multicultural. I don’t see why a country should have to deny its own history and culture. I think we’re a lot more relaxed in Australia, and I hope we remain so, though it’s showing signs of slipping. If a shopping mall or a local council has a nativity display, no-one cares. They might well have a Diwali or Hannukah or Ramadan or Day of the Dead or Anzac Day display sometime too. Signs saying “Christians Only” would piss us off, sure. But that’s not the point of a display, is it? Not the ones I see, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![T.Mehr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@T.Mehr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.Mehr)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/43 "2003-08-20T10:37:06Z")
So how do you like this: In Germany, which is in many points less orthodox then the USA, there is a crucifix in virtually every classroom at public schools. Has been like this forever (talking about “history and culture”) until it was recently chalanged by a teacher in court. So now it will be taken down if someone (teacher, student, parents) demands it. But to my understanding nobody really cares much. When I was at primary school, we started every day with a prayer. Don’t know if it’s still like that, but it didn’t hurt me, but didn’t lead me to salvation either. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/44 "2003-08-20T14:19:01Z")
Thing is, I’m not really offended by religious displays at all. I think the stained glass windows in a lot of churches, the murals painted on walls and ceilings, some of the churches with their architecture and things like Gregorian chant are absolutely beautiful. The only thing that seems to be a problem is seeing someone put up their religious display in an air of ‘this is how it ought to be for everyone.’ If a cop was wearing a cross or a star of David, I can’t say I’d be offended. If he were shoving it in my face and basically saying ‘this is the country you live in, and the basis for our laws’ I’d have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with the fact that my boss puts up pictures of angels in her office, but I am quite uncomfortable when (like last week) I go out to a company dinner and get dirty looks for just sitting quietly while everyone else says grace and does their ‘Amen’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/45 "2003-08-20T18:05:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\*Well, if the government is forbidden from making any distinctions at all as to what constitues a legitamate religion, then if tommorow I went to the IRS and told them I that I just started my own reglion and wanted a tax exempt status, what do you think would happen? > See, that’s what I mean by established. > Mainstream Christian, Jewish, Islamic, and Hindu sects/denominations are examples of established religions. \*\* The US government does not have any distinctions as to what constitutes a legitimate religion. For tax purposes, there is no tax exemption for any religion, but rather for “churches and religious organizations.” To qualify as church, the IRS says > [@](#): > > \*\*Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been > developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include: distinct legal existence; recognized creed and form of worship; definite and distinct ecclesiastical government; formal code of doctrine and discipline; distinct religious history; membership not associated with any other church or denomination; organization of > ordained ministers; ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study; literature of its own; established places of worship; regular congregations; regular religious services; Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young; schools for the preparation of its ministers. > > The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, > to determine whether an organization is considered a church for Federal tax purposes. > > The IRS makes no attempt to evaluate the content of whatever doctrine a particular organization claims is religious, provided the particular beliefs of the organization are truly and sincerely held by those professing them and the practices and rites associated with the organization’s belief or creed are not illegal or contrary > to clearly defined public policy.\*\* If you do not meet thoses qualifications, you might still qualify as a “religious organization” > [@](#): > > **Religious organizations that are not > churches typically include nondenominational ministries, interdenominational and ecumenical organizations and other entities whose principal purpose is the study or advancement of religion.** In addition, tax exempt status requires that the church or religious organization meets these requirements: > [@](#): > > **The organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious, educational,scientific, or other charitable purposes, > Net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder, > No substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation, > The organization may not intervene in political campaigns, and > No part of the organization’s purposes or activities may be illegal or violate fundamental public > policy.** None of this, however has anything to do with legitimacy of doctrine, beliefs or in any way constitutes government recognition or acceptance. It is only whether tax exempt status is merited. Source: [Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organizations](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf) (pdf) pinqy ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/46 "2003-08-21T03:34:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*In the middle of a courthouse? I think it would make for a pretty cluttered courthouse, and would probably not be in keeping with the dignity of the court. > > Probably none of the places you’ve listed would be suitable as a “free speech forum”. This is not to say there would be any _constitutional_ problem with such, if the forum were genuinely open to all with fair rules of access; only that it would wind up being awfully tacky to have the state capitol festooned with everything from “John 3:16” to “Gay Pride!” to “Go Muskrats! Central High Roolz!” > \*\* I was talking purely constitutionally and not practically. I have to say that I’m somewhat surprised. Most people who are against religious displays in public places are against them in **all** places funded by taxes. Even in public officials offices. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/47 "2003-08-21T03:35:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*Thing is, I’m not really offended by religious displays at all. I think the stained glass windows in a lot of churches, the murals painted on walls and ceilings, some of the churches with their architecture and things like Gregorian chant are absolutely beautiful. > > The only thing that seems to be a problem is seeing someone put up their religious display in an air of ‘this is how it ought to be for everyone.’ If a cop was wearing a cross or a star of David, I can’t say I’d be offended. If he were shoving it in my face and basically saying ‘this is the country you live in, and the basis for our laws’ I’d have a problem with it. > > I don’t have a problem with the fact that my boss puts up pictures of angels in her office, but I am quite uncomfortable when (like last week) I go out to a company dinner and get dirty looks for just sitting quietly while everyone else says grace and does their ‘Amen’ thing. \*\* Well it’s probably that they just want you to go through the motions, even if you don’t actually mean it. I’m not saying it’s right, but it is human nature. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/48 "2003-08-21T14:17:08Z")
It’s not going to happen. What they’re asking of me is to pretend that I am not who I am, to basically lie about it to others and most importantly to myself. I really don’t care if they pray, and I’m not trying to stop them, but since this is obviously not something that relates in any way to whether or not I can perform my assigned job duties, they are overstepping their bounds in attempting to force me to participate. It’s really quite the same as the people who told me if I’d just stop wearing black and start going to church on Sunday, I wouldn’t have to worry about getting beaten up for being a ‘devil worshipper’. Yet another reason I want out of my current job. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/49 "2003-08-21T14:47:59Z")
**Catsix** , that sounds absolutely crazy! At WORK? Public prayer and grace over meals?? That’s wack. I didn’t know that sort of thing went on in Pennsylvania! This is one practicing Catholic who would never dream of doing any of that stuff to you. Get out of there. In fact, you may have the basis of a lawsuit starting. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676/50 "2003-08-21T15:28:39Z")
Like I said, it doesn’t bother me if they pray. If it’s all of us going out for some kind of dinner, I’ll sit there quietly. I have no interest in asking them to stop. I do have an interest in whether or not I’m punished, directly or indirectly, for refusing to participate. I don’t work at a religious institution, therefore I’m not neglecting an assigned duty by not praying. My coworkers think nothing of telling me that my lack of Christian belief is a ‘phase’, and that I should just ‘come around.’ Ironically, one of the staff members has a Masters of Divinity, and he’s got the most respect about my non-participation. He just accepts that I won’t, and he doesn’t ask. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objecting-to-religious-symbolism-in-public-places/195676.md?page=2)