# Objection to involuntary gay-conversion therapy or voluntary **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2018, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169 "2018-08-24T06:08:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![blob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blob/32/489_2.png) [@blob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blob)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/61 "2018-08-25T23:43:31Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s not analogous to woo in categories (1) or (2), it’s in category (3) - it’s analogous to a prospective drug treatment that, in trials, (a) doesn’t work (b) has harmful effects. The fact that the harm is psychological rather than physical is irrelevant, we can still objectively evaluate its efficacy and harm in scientific studies. I think that was meant to read category (4)? Anyway, your meaning is clear. Another thing. Using fear to try to modify behaviour in dogs is known not to work. All dog training now is positive reinforcement. For anybody to suggest using it on PEOPLE, to basically torture them into “changing” is inhumane on top of being unnecessary and ineffective. You wouldn’t do it to a DOG. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/62 "2018-08-25T23:46:08Z")
> [@blob](#): > > I think that was meant to read category (4)? Yes, sorry about that, messed up the whole point. ---
**Author:** ![blob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blob/32/489_2.png) [@blob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blob)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/63 "2018-08-25T23:57:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Yes, sorry about that, messed up the whole point. No, it didn’t, because you went into further explanation which made it clear. I’m just a “go back and look at the reference” type. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/64 "2018-08-26T00:40:38Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Yes, sorry about that, messed up the whole point. Not at all. By the way I’m not avoiding replying to you, so much as mulling it over. I sorta half agree, half-disagree and I’m none to certain which half is the more rational one ;). You make a good argument, but it may be your claim that the damage being psychological is irrelevant is part of my hangup( and I expect that might be the more irrational part of this on my part ). After all what might cause suicidal ideation in one person might well cause only mild cognitive dissonance in another. Also you kinda dismiss indirect damage but if we are going to allow some poor moron to treat their malaria with homeopathy, what really is the difference? _Plasmodium falciparum_ cares nothing about the placebo effect. Well, just thinking aloud mostly. I dislike restricting individual agency for adults, but if I agree there is a line ( do I? ), I’m not 100% sure where to draw it. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/65 "2018-08-26T01:31:16Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > …it may be your claim that the damage being psychological is irrelevant is part of my hangup( and I expect that might be the more irrational part of this on my part ). After all what might cause suicidal ideation in one person might well cause only mild cognitive dissonance in another… But there’s always variance among patients, that’s not unique to psychological effects. There’s random variance among patients in the physical harm caused by drugs too. We assess both drugs and talking therapies based on the statistics - expected efficacy vs expected harm. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/66 "2018-08-26T04:00:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I think you may have missed some important bits. You hadn’t made it explicit that they wanted to fall in love with someone of the opposite ge— actually, sex. Typically someone’s “life partner” would be someone that they love and may want a (real) sexual relationship. I think you’re being disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/67 "2018-08-26T05:07:48Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Glenn Shadix (Otho the interior designer in BeetleJuice, the minister in Heathers, voice of the Mayor in Nightmare Before Christmas) shared that his parents forced to try all kinds of ‘conversion therapy’ including at least one variety involving electric shock. I don’t remember if it was ECT or something more homespun. [Lou Reed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Reed#1942%E2%80%9364:_Early_life) was definitely given ECT, and he believed it was because of his gay urges, although his sister stated [otherwise](https://medium.com/cuepoint/a-family-in-peril-lou-reed-s-sister-sets-the-record-straight-about-his-childhood-20e8399f84a3). Whatever the reason, it does sound like the doctor was behind it more than the parents. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/68 "2018-08-28T00:20:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If this is about [California Assembly Bill 2943](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2943), that bill is simply an extension of existing law that prohibits outright scams and fraud. Gay-conversion therapy is, at best, a scam perpetrated on the gullible akin to snake oil, and at its worst, it’s actively harmful and not just fraudulent but comparable to medical malpractice. The right-wing hysteria over this bill is one of the most reprehensible gross misrepresentations I’ve seen in a long time, characterizing it as an [“attack on churches”](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/22/todd-starnes-california-dems-prepare-for-crackdown-on-churches.html) and an effort by godless heathen liberals to ban books and soon [ban the Bible](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-bible-ban/). Back before I got married, my girlfriend’s daughter used to complain with excessive frequency, “That’s not fair!” We worked very hard to explain to her that “Fair” doesn’t mean “advantageous to Jenny” but, rather “equally advantageous (and disadvantageous) to everyone involved.” I suspect that, even today, she still doesn’t comprehend the nuance. In a similar vein, it seems political Christians interpret a loss-of-support for historically Christian advantages and ideals as an attack on Christianity as a whole. Telling them they can’t engage in “re-education” efforts in support of their dichotomous concept of gender/sex/sexuality is an attack on a facet of their faith. As with any slippery slope argument, they predict “Next their will be…” legalization of something like cannibalism or bombing churches. Please help me if I’m relatively uninformed about this but the bits and pieces I’ve read about on this issue make it seem like the Gay Conversion Therapy industry is exclusively a Christian industry, based on Saul/Paul’s anti-gay interpretations of Christian literature. Is this correct, or are there GCT facilities run by Hindus or atheists as well? So if Jeff, a devout Zoroastrian, went in to a GCT facility with the earnest intention of changing his sexual preference, would he have to convert to Christianity (and learn all that from scratch) in order to accept the basic idea that there’s a single omniscient omnipotent infallible God who is offended by Jeff’s confused libido? This reminds me of the 1800’s efforts by benevolent Christians to send missionaries to Indian reservations and/or pull children off the reservations and have them adopted by White families. Their rationale was that it wasn’t that the heathens were inherently bad, they just needed to become Christian. Then everything would be okay. :dubious: My point is that a law that forbids forcing adherence to mores and values that are Christianity-based is not a law designed to attack Christianity. It’s a law made to recognize that there are views, values, and religions in this world that might not conform to Christian ideology but are, nevertheless, equally valid views, values, and religions. Christians might consider it an attack on their religion because it could ultimately reduce Christianity’s dominance over politics and society, but that’s very much like a four-year-old saying a loss of personal advantage is a reduction in fairness to the world. –G! Open up the gates of the church and let me outta here Too many people have lied in the name of Christ For anyone to heed the call [COLOR=“White”]…–Stephen Stills (CSN) …Cathedral[/COLOR] ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/69 "2018-08-28T01:35:22Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Please help me if I’m relatively uninformed about this but the bits and pieces I’ve read about on this issue make it seem like the Gay Conversion Therapy industry is exclusively a Christian industry, based on Saul/Paul’s anti-gay interpretations of Christian literature. Is this correct, or are there GCT facilities run by Hindus or atheists as well? I’m guessing there are no Hindu GCT centers\*. However, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some run by Orthodox Jews. In fact, the only reason I doubt is that Orthodox leaders generally refuse to admit there are gay Jews, and Orthodox families refuse to admit they have gay relatives. - The man celebrated as the greatest warrior of all, Arjuna, spent a year living as a woman (and according to many sources, having sex with men). The Ramayan has a king say “I go into banishment now. All you children, all you men, all you women, do not stand here and wait for me to return.” Years later when he does return, he finds a group of people known as hijras who have been waiting all this time. They explain “As you can see- we are not children. We are neither men nor women. So we waited for our beloved king.” The king blesses the hijras and gives them special, sacred duties. Short version- Im thinking no Hindu GCT. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/70 "2018-08-28T15:45:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > It should be an option and even covered by insurance. LOL – Insurance companies hire people who specialize in finding rationales to deny coverage for actual medical treatment; why on earth would they cover woo-woo nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/71 "2018-08-28T21:36:00Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > …However, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some run by Orthodox Jews… [Yuuuuuup](https://www.timesofisrael.com/shut-out-of-us-orthodox-group-tries-gay-conversion-in-israel/). By and, increasingly, for. . ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/72 "2018-08-28T22:27:08Z")
> [@andros](#): > > [Yuuuuuup](https://www.timesofisrael.com/shut-out-of-us-orthodox-group-tries-gay-conversion-in-israel/). By and, increasingly, for. > . This, we don’t need. I am ashamed but not surpised. ---
**Author:** ![blob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blob/32/489_2.png) [@blob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blob)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/73 "2018-08-28T23:11:18Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > LOL – Insurance companies hire people who specialize in finding rationales to deny coverage for actual medical treatment; why on earth would they cover woo-woo nonsense? My insurer covers woo nonsense. ☹ (It’s different down here, private insurance is sort of optional, they try to get people to take it up, and covering nonsense can be attractive) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/74 "2018-08-29T02:55:32Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I’m guessing there are no Hindu GCT centers Sadly, your [guess would be wrong](https://scroll.in/article/808048/queersagainstquacks-gay-community-reminds-indian-doctors-that-there-is-nothingtocure), at least if you are willing to accept “formal medicalized programs of ‘gay conversion’ treatment” as falling into the category of “GCT centers”. > [@](#): > > Richa Vashista remembers the prolonged trauma suffered by one of her clients. His parents had made him take ayurvedic drugs for a full year to rid him of his homosexuality. […] > > Vashista says she gets a case like this at least once a week in her practice as a psychosocial counsellor. Each patient, she says, had been made to undergo a conversion therapy, the umbrella term for pseudoscientific practices that claim to change sexual orientation or gender identity. […] > > Twenty six years after the World Health Organisation declassified homosexuality as a mental disorder and disease in 1990, there are still doctors in India who see it as such. Even today it’s not uncommon for them to offer suspect medical treatments – such as hormone and electroshock therapy, hypnotherapy and aversion therapy – to treat lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer individuals. […] > > The #QueersAgainstQuacks campaign also cites instances of doctors offering gay conversion therapies, despite the position of the World Psychiatric Association and Indian Psychiatric Society that these treatments are harmful. [QUOTE=DocCathode] Short version- Im thinking no Hindu GCT. [/QUOTE] Short version: Wrong, sorry. Despite some ancient traditions in Indian culture reflecting some degree of acceptance of “third sex”, homosexual, and other non-cishet-binary identities, there is a very large amount of institutionalized homophobia in modern Indian society. Though to be fair, some progress is being made in social attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/75 "2018-08-29T03:29:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sadly, your ]guess would be wrong > > Short version: Wrong, sorry. Despite some ancient traditions in Indian culture reflecting some degree of acceptance of “third sex”, homosexual, and other non-cishet-binary identities, there is a very large amount of institutionalized homophobia in modern Indian society. Though to be fair, some progress is being made in social attitudes. I’m confused, but mostly sad and horrified. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/76 "2018-08-29T04:02:45Z")
It is complicated. But just as the widespread acceptance of certain types of same-sex sexual activity in classical antiquity doesn’t prevent entrenched homophobia in the societies of modern Italy and Greece, the presence of “hijras” and some other non-cishet-binary categories in pre-modern Indian traditions doesn’t automatically result in gay-friendliness in modern Indian culture. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/77 "2018-08-29T12:45:12Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > This, we don’t need. … 😃 Nicely done! ---
**Author:** ![rock\_party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@rock\_party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rock_party)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/78 "2018-08-29T17:38:24Z")
I’ve not heard of any conversion therapy that didn’t have a religious antagonist. It preaches how awesome and God-worthy being opposite sex married and going forth to flourish is, and how evil and selfish and disease ridden the same sex life is. Presumably, anyone seeking therapy would have to accept that they and their desires are an abomination and will bring them an eternity of damnation. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/79 "2018-08-29T17:49:17Z")
> [@rock\_party](#): > > I’ve not heard of any conversion therapy that didn’t have a religious antagonist. A few are noted in [this decade-old thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=541480). But I think the best response to “are there non-religious gay conversion initiatives” is this: > [@Non religious gay conversion?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/non-religious-gay-conversion/519018/4): > > Pretty much all of organized psychiatry prior to homosexuality’s removal from the DSM in the 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169/80 "2018-08-29T17:55:26Z")
“Gay Conversion Therapy” is based on the assumption that being gay is an emotional disorder and perversion, not a natural state of being from birth. Homophobics constantly hammer on the belief that homosexuality is a “choice”, which is absurd. As a heterosexual, I realize that I couldn’t suddenly “choose” to be a lesbian, so why in the world would I believe the opposite scenario to be true? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objection-to-involuntary-gay-conversion-therapy-or-voluntary/820169.md?page=5)