Well, I don’t actually know what would be the best or preferred terminology. (And apparently there’s no solid consensus on it, given that the Wikipedia page for SRS lists synonyms including “gender reassignment surgery, gender confirmation surgery, genital reconstruction surgery, gender-affirming surgery, or sex realignment surgery”.)
“Anatomical sex reassignment” sounds reasonable to me (although the more I think about it, the weirder the word “reassignment” seems in this context. Sounds like a personnel management decision or something. “Corporal, we’re going to reassign you to Company XY for the duration of this maneuver. Please change your uniform and insignia and report to your new commanding officer.”)
Perhaps there’s just a motivation to avoid the word “change” altogether without clear context, since the typical misconception is ignorant gossip like “Susan used to be a man, you know”.
This is a very salient point and one that needs to be brought up. If being gay traumatizes you, then the right question is “why?” not “how do I stop being gay”. It’s about social pressure and religious bigotry. It really isn’t quite as simple as “he wants it, let’s give it to him” - just like the question of wearing a Niqab doesn’t simply come down to “the woman wants it so she should do it”. There are layers of social pressures that make a big difference.
Yes, a person who wishes to change their sexual orientation has the equal right to attempt it and seek help as a trans person does to seek help with reassignment.
You say the counselors helping the people change their orientation do harm. By what criteria? One could argue that the doctors helping a transgender person who later regrets their reassignment have done immense harm by maiming an individual.
What argument could you make against a gay conversion counselor that you couldn’t make against a reassignment counselor?
I think success depends on the satisfaction of the one paying for services.
The picture is pointless. I personally know gay people who have had sex with females and achieved orgasm, and many straight men engage in homosexual activity while in prison and then return to solely straight activity when they get out. Sexuality is both malleable and opportunistic to a significant degree. The evidence for that is clear.
There was a recent reddit change my view thread that explained it the best I think:
In both cases, we give primacy to the brain over the body. We believe that, unless we can demonstrate actual harm from an identity, we should take people’s identity as what it is and adapt society to make that person feel maximally comfortable in their identity. Gay people want to be straight because of society’s bigotry against gay people, trans people want to be their preferred gender in spite of society’s bigotry towards trans people, that’s what makes the cases different.
No, he was obviously BISEXUAL. In a case like that, one could actually choose between the two because one is attracted to BOTH sexes. This is quite common. I have a bisexual friend who alternates between men and women based on her mood and based on actually getting tired of being with one sex and simply wanting to be with the other one.
What you consider “proof” is very disturbing to me.
I don’t think you can assume the motivations of gay people who wish to be straight. It is doubtful that they all have the same motivation, and it’s not for you to assign one.
The same goes for trans people. Their motivations will not likely all be identical nor do you get to assign them.
If I felt in my brain that I was a giant dragon, I doubt any health professional would seriously help me physically become one. So, we clearly don’t give primacy to the brain, and rightly so, because the brain engages in fantasy on occasion.
The analogy of the man with one arm wanting two is also off. a Man with one arm does not have a complete human body. A trans person usually does. The analogy would fit better if you were to say that a man with two arms felt strongly that he should have only one arm.
I probably should clarify that I believe that a great many if not all Practitioners who claim that they can change sexual preference, are charlatans, or practicing bad science or both. So are chiropractors, diet doctors and life coaches and a host of other professions. We tolerate these for various societal reasons but most likely because people get to choose for themselves within reason, and because progress is made at the frontiers and fringes.
This is pretty specious know-nothingism. How many LGBT people do you know and have talked to about these issues? The number of gay people who deeply want to become straight independent of societal pressures is roughly the same as the number of straight people who deeply want to become gay independent of societal pressures, aka: a statistical blip. The fact that there aren’t any straight conversion therapies tells you about as much as you want to know about “you can’t assume motivations”.
Similarly, for trans people, all trans people have the option of passing for cis. That transpeople voluntarily give up this option because they find it so intolerable to live with their bodies tells you about as much as you need to know about their motivations. Yes, there are some people who are doing it for the attention or because they’re young and confused. Guess what, everyone in the trans community is aware of this issue and the vetting process at every step of the way is built to handle this. The only people who believe this is a “problem” are cis people who have never talked to anyone in the trans community.
Yes, because the crux of the argument is that we should give primacy to the brain unless we can demonstrate actual harm from an identity. The dragon argument makes no sense because its clear to everyone that this is a contrived example just to make a point. The entire point of much of the LGBT movement has been to demonstrate that the harm from LGBT identity comes entirely from societal oppression and not anything intrinsic to the identity. LGBT people who are allowed to live normal lives are just as happy and well-adjusted as non-LGBT people.
What do you mean by “indepependant of societal pressures?” Humans are social animals and virtually every behavior we exhibit, from covering our nose when we sneeze, to wearing clothes, or combing our hair is a result of “societal pressures.” There are lots of different and conflicting societal pressures that go into behavior. The fact is that you don’t know which ones people are prioritizing or responding to.
[quote{Similarly, for trans people, all trans people have the option of passing for cis. That transpeople voluntarily give up this option because they find it so intolerable to live with their bodies tells you about as much as you need to know about their motivations.[/quote]
Again, you are taking a group and assigning a single motivation to everyone within the group who takes a given action. That’s oversimplifying. The fact is that there will be multiple reasons, weighted differently, and not all those reasons will be shared throughout the group.
I don’t consider it a problem. In fact, I would go so far to say that as a generality I think this aspect is handled extremely well.
Yes. I contrived that example to prove a point. That’s what people do in discussions. They contrive examples to test ideas. It’s a perfectly ok thing to do. You just can’t dismiss a point because you say it’s contrived. The point still stands.
Once again, you oversimplify. I think there are many points the the LGBT movement. Most of them very positive. The one you are referring to and that I identify strongly with is the ethic of personal freedom, and live and let live. That is, that if what you are doing is not demonstrably harmful to others than it is nobody else’s right to infringe upon it.
Where was this demonstrated? How harmful? More harmful than chiropractic or nutritional supplements, or marijuana, or booze and tobacco.
I strongly suspect that praying the gay away and such are harmful and ineffective. But, I think the burden of proof of harm is very high before you get to ban something. Are all gay conversion therapies equally harmful? Will they all always be harmful or will somebody maybe figure something out that is helpful to somebody in a way that they want?
I Don’t know that gender reassignment surgery in its current form isn’t a harmful thing. (This is not a veiled argument against transgender is. I mean exactly what I say. I don’t know,) But it is absolutely not my decision to make for anybody else, and it is absolutely not my business to make decisions for other people.
I apply the same ethic to those who want to change their sexual preference. I’m not sure it’s a great idea and I’m not sure that the attempt won’t be harmful. It’s simply not for me to decide.
I choose to err on the side of freedom and noninterference in these things, and letting consenting adults decide what they want.
We’re not talking about fashion or social customs or anything here, we’re talking about the choice for a gay man to voluntarily submit themselves to gay conversion therapy. There’s not a lot of different, conflicting societal pressures behind that decision, there is one and only one societal pressure: widespread, systematic homophobia that makes gay people feel like they are not normal. It’s like arguing that maybe in the absence of [a particular form of Islam crossed with localized social pressures], some women will just want their genitals to be mutilated so we should keep some Female Genital Mutilation centers around, just in case someone walks in. It requires a special form of deliberate ignorance to espouse that view.
Oh, so what are those multiple reasons then? Please inform us. Again, this is like arguing if you see someone on the street with a cast on their leg, we shouldn’t assume their motivation. Like, sure maybe they’re cast fetishists who enjoy sexual roleplay in public or maybe they’re smuggling drugs, but if you eliminate all of the incredibly tiny, unlikely motivations, all you’re left with just one single big motivation which is that they’re using it as a medical device to make their bones heal. It’s not some big mysterious thing where you can’t divine their motivation without some deep inquiry.
Similarly, transitioning is a medical procedure aimed at lessening gender dysphoria, that’s it. There’s no other strange, big mystery behind it. Besides, transitioning is something only the cis community is obsessed about. Within the trans community, the majority of people have no plans or desire to transition. They correctly recognize that it’s an extreme measure to deal with gender dysphoria that should only be undertaken if the pros outweigh the substantial cons and there are many, much less extreme methods to cope with the wide spectrum of gender dysphoria conditions.
I made the argument of the form of “If (X and Y), then Z” and your response was essentially “Yeah, but if (X and not Y), should it also be Z?”. It’s perfectly valid to dismiss your point because it didn’t actually engage with my argument at all. I’m perfectly willing to admit there’s a lot of complexity behind my very large simplifications but if you want to argue against it, you have to actual engage with the argument.
Well, maybe instead of arguing in this thread, you should go out and actually go talk to some transgender people and learn? Coming back with actual concrete findings instead of vague suppositions would help a lot with the quality of this debate.
You are saying the only reason a person would voluntarily submit to gay conversion therapy is the “societal pressure: widespread systematic homophobia.”
Wrong.
It is dangerous and false to apply blanket motivations and single causes to complex issues. There are many reasons why someone may wish to change beyond.
Here’s one: The traditional family structure is appealing regardless of sexual preference. A gay person may want that, and it may be more important to them than sexual fulfillment. It might work better if the person actually desired their partner sexually, so they might want to work at doing so, and try to change their preference to better suit the role they wish to live.
This happens quite a lot and I know of two instances among my acquaintances where this is the case.
Multiple reasons for transgenderism?
I think I am a person trapped in the body of the wrong sex.
Transgenderism seems interesting and exciting and I would like to explore it because I’ve always wondered how the other half lives.
Some of my friends are transgender and I feel left out.
I am seeking attention
I have problems and issues and I believe that my gender identity is the key to fixing them
Your making an assumption about my experience while knowing nothing about who I have and haven’t talked to.
Since you made a suggestion i’ll Offer one in return. How about you don’t make blanket assumptions about other people’s motivations and stop assigning simplistic unitary causes to complex phenomena?
Yeah, 2, 3 & 4 are not real reasons, they’re cis stereotypes of trans people that arise from never having actually met or talked to trans people. Nobody has ever gotten anywhere close to actual transitioning because “it seems exciting” or “all my friends are doing it”, it’s an absurd and frankly insulting characterization of trans people.
Distinguishing between 1 & 5 is the reason why transitioning takes multiple years and a long checklist of steps before doctors are willing to support surgical transition. The process isn’t perfect but it’s as hell as close to it as we can come right now.
Actually, Brown put up a study a few days ago that showed that people who had friends that were trans were more likely to be trans, and that there was an environmental correlation.
It got pulled down. I guess some found that insulting to trans people.
I don’t see why. That one is malleable and adaptable based on their environment is hardly surprising.
Also, if one person is trans because it seems exciting and interesting I don’t think that insults or demeans someone who is trans because they feel they are trapped in the wrong body.
If you are going to say they are not truly trans you are making a no true Scotsman fallacy.
Free people doing free things without hurting others is AOK.
Are 2-5 just stereotypes perpetrated by cis folks who don’t know better, or are they the reason it takes multiple years to transition so that the people in those categories get weeded out?
You are making both arguments simultaneously and they are mutually exclusive.