# Objectively, is Donald Trump a good businessman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2017, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015 "2017-02-28T06:25:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/41 "2017-02-28T19:15:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Probably not, but probably the best baseball player that ever was worked as a banker and never went into the sport, and the best chess player that ever was lived a life without ever even learning the rules to the game. Who were these two? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/42 "2017-02-28T19:16:41Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > And Trump’s dad was dangerously impoverished by the standards of Trump’s wealth. No, that’s where you’re wrong. Fred Trump was about as rich as Donald is, adjusting for inflation and our ignorance about the current details of Trump’s finances. On the other hand, Bill Gates, Sr. ran a successful law firm. Bill Gates is _the richest person in the world_. Trump, at best, climbed a step higher on the ladder of success than his dad did. Bill Gates climbed the entire ladder, built a skyscraper on top, then took a rocket to the moon. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/43 "2017-02-28T19:39:11Z")
Gates had actual talent that didn’t require a ton of capital to get moving. I think he would have wound up just as big had his parents been lower middle class. I don’t believe Gates ever cheated anyone, didn’t stiff his suppliers, and didn’t grab women by the pussy. Talent plus hard work trumps cheating your way up starting from a small fortune. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/44 "2017-02-28T19:57:59Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > And how you can you laud business success when six of your core businesses have declared bankruptcy? If the seventh one makes you super rich. Again, how does Trump define success? Henry Ford may define it differently, but he’s dead and has no stake in Trumpco. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/45 "2017-02-28T20:05:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > **I don’t believe Gates ever cheated anyone** , didn’t stiff his suppliers, and didn’t grab women by the pussy. Opinion is divided on the subject. There’s a strong argument to be made that Gates basically purchased a cheap knockoff of Digital Research’s OS and resold it to IBM, thus securing his spot as the OS provider for IBM and its future clones; Gates’s early dirty tricks very possibly drove Gary Kildall to his grave. It also didn’t hurt that Gates’s mom was on the executive committee of the United Way along with John Opel, the CEO of IBM. She convinced him to take a chance on young Bill. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/46 "2017-02-28T20:07:33Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Who were these two? They are unknown because they never had the chance to exercise their natural talents. Aptitude is worthless without opportunity. For more on the theme of potential wasted by circumstances, please read Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard. > **[Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard by Thomas… | Poetry Foundation](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44299/elegy-written-in-a-country-churchyard)** > > The curfew tolls the knell of parting day, ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/47 "2017-02-28T21:09:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > He was worth about a billion at the time At least according to some accountings. I remember posing a question about Trump several years ago: “If you have 500 million dollars and you owe a billion dollars, are you rich or are you poor?” No one has a vault full of cash like Scrooge McDuck; it’s all ledgers, and how much liability you have versus how much you expect (or hope, or pretend) to receive by the time those liabilities come due. If it can restructure its debt and keep its cash flow going, a business can keep dancing on top of the avalanche for years or decades. In that sense, Trump is the most accomplished dancer since Gene Kelly. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/48 "2017-02-28T21:16:38Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > At least according to some accountings. I remember posing a question about Trump several years ago: “If you have 500 million dollars and you owe a billion dollars, are you rich or are you poor?” That’s not really how a business is run. Most businesses are run on a deficit, because they are growing and most loans are based on a time scale. If I own something that I could sell for $500m straight up, which earns $100m a year profit, on a $1b loan that isn’t due for 20 years, that’s pretty successful. If I own something that can only earn $500m profit over a 20 year period, on a $1b loan that’s due in 20 years, that’s not looking too good. ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/49 "2017-03-01T21:53:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If the purpose of being a businessman is to make yourself richer, I wish I was as bad a businessman as Donald Trump is. No, you don’t, because Trump did not make himself richer. As has been pointed out, if he’d simply put his inheritance into a portfolio of index funds, he’d have as much or more now than he does. His businesses, in aggregate, lost money. If you were exactly as good at business as he is, you, too, would have less money now than when you started - a failure by your own metric. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/50 "2017-03-01T22:30:24Z")
> [@TheSeaOtter](#): > > No, you don’t, because Trump did not make himself richer. As has been pointed out, if he’d simply put his inheritance into a portfolio of index funds, he’d have as much or more now than he does Ok. Let’s try that. Trump received, in 1999, something from $50M to $200M in inheritance. S&P500, Jan 1, 1999: 1,248 S&P500, Jan 1, 2017: 2,275 Other indexes had similar gains. Around 100%. So - if Trump “put his inheritance into a portfolio of index funds” (and spent none of it), he’d have at most $400M from it today. AFAIU, he’s worth a lot more than that. Correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/51 "2017-03-01T22:45:54Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Ok. Let’s try that. > > Trump received, in 1999, something from $50M to $200M in inheritance. > > S&P500, Jan 1, 1999: 1,248 > S&P500, Jan 1, 2017: 2,275 > > Other indexes had similar gains. Around 100%. So - if Trump “put his inheritance into a portfolio of index funds” (and spent none of it), he’d have at most $400M from it today. AFAIU, he’s worth a lot more than that. > > Correct me if I’m wrong. You’re wrong. No one really knows what he’s worth because,_surprise_, he won’t release his taxes. I’m inclined to believe that if he’s worth what he claims and given his huge ego, he would have no problem revealing records to prove his claims. Unless those records are damaging to him and prove what he’s really worth. Or worse. According to the Wall Street Journal, he owes 1.85 billion. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/52 "2017-03-01T22:52:50Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Ok. Let’s try that. > > Trump received, in 1999, something from $50M to $200M in inheritance. > > S&P500, Jan 1, 1999: 1,248 > S&P500, Jan 1, 2017: 2,275 > > Other indexes had similar gains. Around 100%. So - if Trump “put his inheritance into a portfolio of index funds” (and spent none of it), he’d have at most $400M from it today. AFAIU, he’s worth a lot more than that. > > Correct me if I’m wrong. Iirc, the vast bulk of what he reports as his worth is based on his own valuation of his name. So, his valuation of his worth may need a grain or two of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/53 "2017-03-01T23:53:08Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Iirc, the vast bulk of what he reports as his worth is based on his own valuation of his name. > So, his valuation of his worth may need a grain or two of salt. Ah so when the meme of “he’d be worth more than the $4-10B if he just invested the money” is proven wrong, the goalposts are moved. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/54 "2017-03-02T02:49:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You’re wrong. > No one really knows what he’s worth because,_surprise_, he won’t release his taxes. BTW his tax returns will give no clue whatsoever to his net worth. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/55 "2017-03-02T04:44:22Z")
Objectively, he’s underperformed the rest of the country in the real estate market by 57%. [Has Donald Trump Underperformed In The Real Estate Business?](https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2016/03/03/has-donald-trump-underperformed-in-the-real-estate-business/#1c72dfe44bfd) And outbullshitted them by 100,000,000%. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/56 "2017-03-02T04:51:45Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > BTW his tax returns will give no clue whatsoever to his net worth. Then there’s no reason to keep them secret. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/57 "2017-03-02T05:37:05Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Ok. Let’s try that. > > Trump received, in 1999, something from $50M to $200M in inheritance. > > S&P500, Jan 1, 1999: 1,248 > S&P500, Jan 1, 2017: 2,275 > > Other indexes had similar gains. Around 100%. So - if Trump “put his inheritance into a portfolio of index funds” (and spent none of it), he’d have at most $400M from it today. AFAIU, he’s worth a lot more than that. Why are you only using the 1999 inheritance as a starting point? It’s not like Trump kept that money in a distinct account so he could track it separately from the rest of his money. By comparing that 1999 inheritance to his current total net worth you vastly overstate his financial performance. According to this [cite](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/business/yourmoney/whats-he-really-worth.html) Trump was worth $1.6 billion in 1999. I don’t know if that includes the inheritance or not. But he’d need to be in the $3-$4 billion range now just to have kept pace with the market. > [@](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong. Consider it done. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/58 "2017-03-02T13:21:26Z")
> [@XT](#): > > H > > Did his daddy write the software as well? Did his daddy build the relationship with Jobs and Apple too? Did his daddy build the boards for the conversions that jumped Microsoft up so quickly? Gates is so far from comparable to Trump that they might as well not even be in the same universe, let alone the same species. While I won’t say that Gates dad had zero impact on Microsoft’s success there is no comparison between that and what Trump got from his dad wrt building his buisness. So if Bill Gates had been the son of William and Mary Gates, Seattle area postman and his homemaker wife he still would have succeeded as he did? Would IBM still have taken a chance on him without Mommy pleading her boys case? Gotten as much done with clients Daddy’s law firm negotiating for him a sweetheart deal? The biggest things Bill got from Mom and Dad was not money it was contacts and introduction, which are _far_ more important than money. He was capable no doubt and deserves his success, but the fact is that it would have been unlkely sans his parents. Trump got money from his father, but he notably struggled to get contacts and introductions in Manhattan where he made his name, a place where Fred Trump did not venture. And did Fred Trump get him introductions to studio heads so he could pitch or be pitched potential TV Pilots? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/59 "2017-03-02T13:30:19Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Ah so when the meme of “he’d be worth more than the $4-10B if he just invested the money” is proven wrong, the goalposts are moved. I didn’t set any goalposts Nor did I move any If anything, I pointed out that we have only a dubious estimate of where the ball is on the field. It’s just the facts about where he pulls his numbers from. It seems relevant to the discussion. use w/e lens you like to view them but there they are :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015/60 "2017-03-02T15:30:36Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Why are you only using the 1999 inheritance as a starting point? Because it was in response to the post claiming " if he’d simply put his **inheritance** into a portfolio of index funds, he’d have as much or more now than he does." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/objectively-is-donald-trump-a-good-businessman/781015.md?page=4)