# Obligate 'lifting of the veil' for Muslim women if asked to by a police officer - racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527 "2011-07-10T18:07:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/41 "2011-07-11T16:25:46Z")
If it’s really true that racism is just “the targeting of a minority group for bigotry” then that means that it would be acceptable to call anti-gay bigotry “racism” too. It would also mean that sexism against women in male dominated environments is “racism.” It might even mean that discrimination against atheists is also “racism” since atheists are a definite minority. Do you see where I’m going with this? The “racism means discrimination against any minority” argument is absolute horseshit. I am not going to sit here and be called “pedantic” or any other word when it’s you guys who are totally mangling the definition of “Racism” to the point where it has no meaning anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/42 "2011-07-11T16:28:06Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Oh get over yourself. My comment was directly related to the OP’s question, and relevant to the discussion. You showed extreme ignorance of both the way things are done in Muslim countries and the US. I’m sorry if my pointing that out pissed you off but when you imply that Muslims somehow allow veiled women to not have to remove their veils when needed but they do you look extremely foolish. Islam has always been a very practical religion. Beyond that, after pontificating on the proper use of the term “race” you claimed that in the US you have “a right to be safe”. The Courts have never held there is such a thing. In fact, they’ve specifically ruled that you don’t even have an expectation of the police helping you. That’s also a good thing because were the Courts ever to make such an asinine determination, that US citizens had “a right to be safe” that would lead to all sorts of problems and conflict with all sorts of rights. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t. It has a proper definition that you can look up in any dictionary. Dictionaries don’t give definitions. They just give common understandings. If you wish to proclaim it’s not racist to say “I hate Jews” on the grounds that they’re “religious group”, you can, but I think most would agree that doing so is classic example of “distinctions without a difference.” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/43 "2011-07-11T16:28:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “Racism” is a perfectly accurate and descriptive word for bigotry against a distinct group of people. Are Christians considered a race? How about Presbyterians? Scientologists? I think you’re on pretty shaky ground with this loose definition, and applying it in this case mainly because most Muslims tend to be some shade of brown. Black/brown –\> “minority” (in the traditional U.S. sense) –\> racism. I agree that insisting on the “textbook definition” of racism is a popular dodge, but if “racism” now means whatever we want it to mean, it no longer means anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/44 "2011-07-11T16:39:27Z")
Insofar as from what I see, most anti-Muslim commentary really boils down to being anti-“Paki” or Arab (i.e. relative Northern Europeans, “of another race” in loose terms), I don’t think it off to characterise much anti-sentiment as largely racist at its roots. Bigoted is doubtless a better term, but given the general popular confusion about race and religion around Muslims at least in Anglosphere, not without a solid foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/45 "2011-07-11T16:40:49Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Are Christians considered a race? How about Presbyterians? Scientologists? > > I think you’re on pretty shaky ground with this loose definition, and applying it in this case mainly because most Muslims tend to be some shade of brown. Black/brown –\> “minority” (in the traditional U.S. sense) –\> racism. > > I agree that insisting on the “textbook definition” of racism is a popular dodge, but if “racism” now means whatever we want it to mean, it no longer means anything at all. Since race is a myth I’m not sure why people are trying to argue that what does and doesn’t constitute racism is set in stone. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/46 "2011-07-11T16:49:55Z")
Well, there is a valid argument. But for me it fails as on a popular level, which is where prejudice exists, many people treat Muslim and “dark ‘Arab’ person from Middle East” as complete synonyms. So anti-Muslim sentiment ends up being pretty much racism, even if ‘technically’ it would not be (much as anti-Semitism shouldn’t have been racism but ended up being so because of the way Jewishness ended up being understood on a popular level). Anyway, I think all are in agreement the whole bjection about showing the face is bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/47 "2011-07-11T16:50:01Z")
Look, there’s perfectly good reason why Islamic women wear the veil. It’s because they have the tradition of not being in the company of the opposite sex except for their male relatives in many Islamic societies. Which, inevitably, means a whole lot of sibling-fucking and cousin-fucking goes on prior to marriage, which means, well, a whole lot of Islamic women look disturbingly like their male relatives. So the veil is a way to conceal that fact, and allow everybody to be a little less creeped out by their own weird sexual practices. So, let’s try to be a little more tolerant and understanding of Islamic folks, all righty? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/48 "2011-07-11T17:04:04Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Look, there’s perfectly good reason why Islamic women wear the veil. It’s because they have the tradition of not being in the company of the opposite sex except for their male relatives in many Islamic societies. Which, inevitably, means a whole lot of sibling-fucking and cousin-fucking goes on prior to marriage, which means, well, a whole lot of Islamic women look disturbingly like their male relatives. So the veil is a way to conceal that fact, and allow everybody to be a little less creeped out by their own weird sexual practices. So, let’s try to be a little more tolerant and understanding of Islamic folks, all righty? This is stupid and contributes nothing to the discussion. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/49 "2011-07-11T17:14:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since race is a myth I’m not sure why people are trying to argue that what does and doesn’t constitute racism is set in stone. Race is not a “myth.” It is a broad concept that may be loosely defined and very complicated, but it still has valid uses in discussions. And, in any case, if you do indeed believe it to be a myth, then you should be criticizing the people using the word “racism” to describe a religion, just like I am. If race really is a myth, then racism is also a myth. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/50 "2011-07-11T17:19:00Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > No they are not. The lack of the scientific community to establish a biological definition of “race” as it pertains to humans does not equate to being able to use the word in whatever manner you like. Would it be okay with you if I used the word in the manner described in my Oxford Canadian Dictionary? [QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Are Christians considered a race? How about Presbyterians? Scientologists? [/QUOTE] Could be. Depends when and where you are. Nobody thinks Scientologists are a race, so they’re not. But not very long ago, people referred to the English “race,” German “race,” and French “race” as if they were quite distinct races indeed. Many would have found it insulting to imply a person of English descent was the same “race” as someone of Irish descent. Even more recently, Hutu and Tutsi certainly thought of each other as different races, despite the fact that most outsiders would have thought that absurd. Indeed, most Americans classify “blacks” as a race even though dark-skinned Africans include a number of biologically diverse groups that are, in fact, as genetically and physically different from each other as they are from “white” people. “Race” and therefore racism is situational. No, I don’t think Scientologists are a race, that that’s because the social reality is they aren’t considered a distinct race. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/51 "2011-07-11T17:19:31Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Race is not a “myth.” It is a broad concept that may be loosely defined and very complicated, but it still has valid uses in discussions. And, in any case, if you do indeed believe it to be a myth, then you should be criticizing the people using the word “racism” to describe a religion, just like I am. If race really is a myth, then racism is also a myth. So then you think it’s wrong to say that people who say “I hate Jews” are racist? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/52 "2011-07-11T17:19:36Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > If race really is a myth, then racism is also a myth. This is ridiculous. But people often say racism when they should say bigotry or prejudice, so to some extent your initial comment was correct. The question of whether or not the veil rules are bigoted is more interesting than yet another discussion of what race means. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/53 "2011-07-11T17:24:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is ridiculous. Yeah, I know it is. That’s my point. Race is not a “myth.” Race _is_ an _idea_ that mankind has created, probably because we are visual creatures and it’s easier for us to classify things based on how they look than on other, more abstract qualities. It’s an idea that at times can be loosely defined, and doesn’t always fit into simple boxes, but the idea of race is still very much a part of human discourse. To just hand-wave any discussions of race away by saying “it’s a myth” is idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/54 "2011-07-11T17:50:52Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Yeah, I know it is. That’s my point. Race is not a “myth.” Race _is_ an _idea_ that mankind has created, probably because we are visual creatures and it’s easier for us to classify things based on how they look than on other, more abstract qualities. It’s an idea that at times can be loosely defined, and doesn’t always fit into simple boxes, but the idea of race is still very much a part of human discourse. To just hand-wave any discussions of race away by saying “it’s a myth” is idiotic. They’re saying it doesn’t have a firm biological basis, and **RickJay** just posted an example of supposed races that really don’t look different. I wouldn’t argue that these laws are racist, partly because I don’t want to waste time arguing about something like this and partly because I don’t think you should be exempt from common-sense laws just because they conflict with your religious views. Most of us use our IDs a lot, and it’s hard to make that work without photos. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/55 "2011-07-11T18:14:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is ridiculous. But people often say racism when they should say bigotry or prejudice, so to some extent your initial comment was correct. The question of whether or not the veil rules are bigoted is more interesting than yet another discussion of what race means. Agreed; but that isn’t what the OP asked, hence the digression. I’m happy to let it be but if the policy IS bigoted, then it should be fair to discuss the origin of the prejudice. I maintain that it isn’t bigoted so it doesn’t really matter to me either way. Some posters seem to think it is for racist bigotry, rather than by necessity or reason of practicality that they are considering this policy. I"m not seeing that and I’d like them to _show their work_, isn’t that what we DO here in GD? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/56 "2011-07-11T18:20:54Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > … Some posters seem to think it is for racist bigotry, rather than by necessity or reason of practicality that they are considering this policy. … Who here in this thread? As far as I can tell, no one. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/57 "2011-07-11T18:28:35Z")
Once on this esteemed board, I was called a “racist” on the basis of some comments I made about Quebec. At first, I laughed and asked to what ‘race’ the Quebecois belonged. Later, I checked the dictionary (M-W) and was chagrined to find, among others, this definition: > [@Merriam-Webster](#): > > 2a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock > > b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics So, it looks like there _is_ a definition based primarily on non-physical, non-genetic traits. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/58 "2011-07-11T18:46:38Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Who here in this thread? As far as I can tell, no one. **CapitaineZombie** suggests it might be though they are careful to state later that aren’t sure without further info. It was their comments I initially responded to, since their basis seemed to be defining racist as whatever the aggrieved says it is. It is quite possible I misconstrued their position, but I’d rather wait for them to return to the thread and clarify rather than nitpicking a post I have no further info on. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/59 "2011-07-11T19:30:29Z")
it’s not racist by any definition if all members of a given society are required to 'show their faces for identification purposes" - so far as I know, while the muslim women may be the largest minority group of folks that have an issue with such a rule, it is not designed to single them out. There are rules/laws against people wearing ‘masks’ in in-appropriate places - adults at the bank, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/60 "2011-07-11T19:42:43Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > This was a big deal in Dearborn a couple years ago. The muslims won in court. That means they did not have to show their face in drivers license photos, which in turn allows them to not be identified when they vote. It does not feel right to me. I am sure it is ripe for abuse. If a muslim girl got a bunch of auto tickets, she could drive with her sisters license . How could the cop tell? she could vote for her as well. Cite? The closest thing I can find via Google is a[small claims court case](http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/courtroom_judge_has_power_to_ban_muslim_veil_top._mich._court_decides/)where a Muslim woman refused to show her face, and the judge threw out her suit. (Case just resolved to say that judge was correct). I find it completely unbelieveable that the state of MI would allow anyone to hide their face in a DL photo - but, I’ve been wrong before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527.md?page=4)