# Obligate 'lifting of the veil' for Muslim women if asked to by a police officer - racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527 "2011-07-10T18:07:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 90
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527/90 "2011-07-13T14:56:01Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Moi? I’m not playing coy, but I can’t recall criticizing ‘Quebecers’ in another thread (the one that earned me the “racist” epithet was, maybe, 10 or 11 years ago - is that what you’re referring to?) Yes, you. In [thread=556118]this **Flying Dutchman** thread[/thread] from last year. The OP was complaining that Quebec women, when having their health card photo taken (a time when they need to remove their veil to ensure their identification), wouldn’t be guaranteed access to a female clerk, but might have to come back at another time when one would be available. Or remove their veil in front of a male clerk. You posted this: > [@Quebec Gov't Tells Veiled Muslims "Go to the back of the line"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/12): > > Correct me if I’m wrong (be gentle, please), but why does this type of ‘confrontation’ seem to be so much more frequent in French-speaking places? This particular one is happening in Quebec (and [there are others there](http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=caf95c44-735f-4ee9-b905-c3473cd31609&k=70626), too) and I’m sure you’ve heard about the [similar brouhahas](http://www.independentcollegian.com/2.10031/france-s-new-oppression-1.1330118) in France. Is this just my imagination or is this type of intolerance genuinely more common in French-speaking areas? > > My sense is that among all the more common major languages, French is the most insular. In other words, TPTB in French-speaking areas seem to make a point of resisting the inclusion of words from foreign languages into contemporary French. Instead, French equivalents are devised and their usage ‘enforced’. In a similar vein, in Quebec at least, [public display of foreign languages (e.g. on signs, labels) is officially prohibited or severely restricted](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_dispute_over_Quebec%27s_language_policy). > > What I am getting at, of course, is that whether its language, niqabs, or yarmulkes, French speaking peoples seem unduly close-minded. YMMV. But now in this thread’s OP, you say this: > [@KarlGauss](#): > > Please take a look at [this article](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1022647--muslim-women-to-remove-veils-at-police-request-if-australia-law-passes?bn=1#article) from the Toronto Star. It describes a proposed new law in Australia that would compel women whose face is covered by a veil to show their face to a police officer if requested to do so by said officer. Assuming I’m correct about the salient points of the new law and its requirements, is it racist? > > Personally, I think it is most definitely not racist. First, as I understand it, women covering their face in Islam is a _cultural_ tradition not a religious dictate. Second, the woman will need to show her face only briefly, only to police, and only (like all “search and seizures”) when the officer has good cause to require her identification. Third, and most importantly, is that the proposed law will avoid a repeat of the debacle that occurred to provide its impetus. So now you see no problem with requiring veil-wearing women to remove it to identify themselves (presumably even if they have no immediate access to a female officer). Of course Australia isn’t a “French-speaking area” to use your terminology, so perhaps you’re more patient with them and more willing to concede that they’re acting in good faith. As for your being accused of racism for comments about Quebec, I don’t know what that was about and I probably won’t try finding it. (Oh, who am I kidding? Of course I’ll search for it, as soon as I find the time. ;)) To be honest I thought you were talking about this thread from last year. But if it was 10 years ago, then I guess not. Now as for the sub-discussion about the ban on religious symbols in France, I think **Capitaine Zombie** and the other participants are speaking past each other. The **Capitaine** and the other French posters can correct me, but as far as I know there is a big difference between how France and other countries (especially the US) view the place of religion in the public sphere. France guarantees you freedom of worship, but religion must always remain a private affair. Even wearing religious symbols when you’re in a government-mandated setting (studying, or working as a public servant, etc.) is frowned upon, and (as the **Capitaine** ’s posts tell me) seen as tantamount to proselytism. This is the difference between “large” and “subtle” religious symbols: the large ones can’t be missed, so you really express something to the world when you’re wearing them. The subtle ones are more private. They are for you alone. Personally, I’m more sympathetic to the American or Canadian (and I assume Australian etc.) philosophy which is that religious symbols you wear on you are a private expression of your faith. But of course this means that the government doesn’t have a duty to accommodate the wearing of them. It _can_ do so, but only if it serves the public good and doesn’t cost too much upon us. If it isn’t unreasonable. And I’m also not willing to condemn the French position as racist or xenophobic. It’s based on a sound philosophical basis, only one that I disagree with. (And also, **Capitaine Zombie** , and the other French posters I’ve seen use this terminology: as far as I know “Frenches” isn’t a word in English. You say “Frenchmen” or “Frenchwomen”, or “French people”.) > [@RaleighRally](#): > > Yes it is according to the theories of cultural Marxism (aka political correctness). Aren’t you tired of blaming everything you disagree with that has to do with Muslims on “cultural Marxism”? I’m starting to wonder if you’re a bot. --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obligate-lifting-of-the-veil-for-muslim-women-if-asked-to-by-a-police-officer-racist/588527)._