# Obscene wealth: World's richest 85 hold the same wealth as 3.5 billion poor. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362 "2014-01-21T13:42:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/61 "2014-08-24T21:00:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That study is a joke. Their conclusions are tentative and preliminary; their measurements are far from perfect. Their “affluent” household, the one which supposedly runs things, is one which makes $146,000 annually. Ok, so assuming for the sake of an argument that the study is flawed (and I would argue that “tentative,” “preliminary,” and “far from perfect” do not automatically make it “a joke”), does that then make the following claim true: > [@puddleglum](#): > > The idea that the rich have or could hijcack the political process is a myth designed to make people feel better about their envy. ? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/62 "2014-08-24T21:50:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That study is a joke. Their conclusions are tentative and preliminary; their measurements are far from perfect. Their “affluent” household, the one which supposedly runs things, is one which makes $146,000 annually. First let me say that my comment here isn’t specifically directed at you, but your quote provides a useful anchor around which to direct my observation. There are many aspects of the US economy and society that literally quite boggles the minds of civilized nations. That the richest country in the world still argues about universal health care, for example, when every other industrialized country in the world has embraced it for many decades as a core pillar of their social contract, is incomprehensible on any rational level. The extent to which the health insurance industry – just to take that one isolated example – controls the hearts and minds of everyday Americans is such that even the minimal reforms of the PPACA are denounced as “socialism”, which seems to be just appalling evidence of an oligarchy promulgating self-serving disinformation. The widening gap between the super-rich and everybody else, as expressed in the Gini index and many other measures – provides many other examples. So when I see an expression like “The idea that the rich have or could hijack the political process is a myth designed to make people feel better about their envy” – when in fact there are good grounds for questioning whether there is even a meaningful democracy in America any more – the health care and taxation systems being prime examples – I see someone who has not only drank the Kool-Aid, but is either manufacturing and selling it or has drowned in it. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/63 "2014-08-24T22:42:11Z")
Well, you could always move to Sweden or any other country that taxes its people heavily and redistributes its wealth. Nobody’s stopping you, you’re free to go, any of you that feels that this country’s wealth is not distributed adequately. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/64 "2014-08-24T22:50:04Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Well, you could always move to Sweden or any other country that taxes its people heavily and redistributes its wealth. Nobody’s stopping you, you’re free to go, any of you that feels that this country’s wealth is not distributed adequately. Or, better still, we could stay in our own native country and work to make it more egalitarian. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/65 "2014-08-24T23:11:53Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Well, you could always move … Well, of course: “America – love it or leave it”. This philosophy has been heard quite extensively, though I personally haven’t seen its formal publication much outside the realm of bumper stickers on redneck pickups with gun racks on the rear windows. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/66 "2014-08-24T23:17:28Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Ok, so assuming for the sake of an argument that the study is flawed (and I would argue that “tentative,” “preliminary,” and “far from perfect” do not automatically make it “a joke”), does that then make the following claim true: > > ? No. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/67 "2014-08-24T23:19:46Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > First let me say that my comment here isn’t specifically directed at you, but your quote provides a useful anchor around which to direct my observation. > > There are many aspects of the US economy and society that literally quite boggles the minds of civilized nations. That the richest country in the world still argues about universal health care, for example, when every other industrialized country in the world has embraced it for many decades as a core pillar of their social contract, is incomprehensible on any rational level. Why do you get to decide who is civilized, and what the indicia of civilization are? Perhaps we’re the richest country because we embraced a self-sufficient attitude for so much of our history, and did not allow ourselves to be shamed into paying for things which should be the responsibility of each person? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/68 "2014-08-25T00:50:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps we’re the richest country because we embraced a self-sufficient attitude for so much of our history, and did not allow ourselves to be shamed into paying for things which should be the responsibility of each person? When has this ever been true? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/69 "2014-08-25T01:37:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps we’re the richest country because we embraced a self-sufficient attitude for so much of our history, and did not allow ourselves to be shamed into paying for things which should be the responsibility of each person? In other words, Americans are taught from childhood to be easily exploitable victims. Self destructively selfish, short sighted and disloyal to our own; more concerned with hatred than with anything else. A society full of people who would prefer to suffer or die themselves than take the terrible risk that somehow in some way something they’ve done might actually help someone else. And, what does it matter that America if the richest country in the world if most of the population doesn’t share in it? Why should we care about abstract numbers? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/70 "2014-08-25T01:40:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The poor of planet Earth, on average, spend far, far more time working than the very richest of planet Earth. And most of that work benefits the very richest in some way. > > You seem to be confusing “poor” with “unemployed and receiving assistance”. Do you really think 3.5 billion people on earth are unemployed and receiving assistance? The vast majority of those 3.5 billion people work, and they work _very, very hard_. Nah, just throwing all in together. Being quick on the response/post. More to come. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/71 "2014-08-25T01:57:39Z")
Those fucking kids born with Down’s Syndrome and AIDS should lift themselves up by their bootstraps! ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/72 "2014-08-25T02:00:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes you equate rich with producer? The producers work for the rich, who make profits off of them; the rich don’t produce anything. And what makes you assume that most of those 3.5 billion poor people are on welfare? > > And you ignored my basic point that in a consumer driven economy, _consumption_ creates jobs. A guy sitting on a huge sum of money does _not._ > > It depends on where his money went. You just seem to take for granted that ‘producers’ are labor, and then decree that the rich are not producers. Powerful stuff. You are playing with definitions, and trying to say that one of the factors of production are the sole means of production. Note the word ‘production’, which is related to produce/producers. The rich create quite more than the poor, via entrepreneurship, and you know that. That’s basic economics. The rich do not ‘make profits off of the producers’, the rich make profits off of their resources, some of which are wages that they pay to labor. Also, show me a person who sits on a huge sum of money. That is just nonsense. Their money is working for them, as they have apportioned it. They drive the consumer economy with their spending. With their investments. Creating whole industries all around the world. Creating jobs. Their huge sums of money are not towers from which they abuse the poor, as you would have it. Their HSM are tools, which drive production. “It depends on where his money went.” Fabulous. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/73 "2014-08-25T02:03:54Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > You are playing with definitions, and trying to say that one of the factors of production are the sole means of production. > The rich create quite more than the poor, via entrepreneurship, and you know that. That’s basic economics. No, that’s right wing propaganda. > [@handsomeharry](#): > > Also, show me a person who sits on a huge sum of money. That is just nonsense. Their money is working for them, as they have apportioned it. They drive the consumer economy with their spending. With their investments. Creating whole industries all around the world. Creating jobs. Nonsense. It’s the common people who drive most of the economy. Nor do they create jobs, the common people do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/74 "2014-08-25T02:56:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > When has this ever been true? In general, it’s been true for much of our national history. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/75 "2014-08-25T02:58:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, Americans are taught from childhood to be easily exploitable victims. Self destructively selfish, short sighted and disloyal to our own; more concerned with hatred than with anything else. A society full of people who would prefer to suffer or die themselves than take the terrible risk that somehow in some way something they’ve done might actually help someone else. > > And, what does it matter that America if the richest country in the world if most of the population doesn’t share in it? Why should we care about abstract numbers? That’s just left-wing propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/76 "2014-08-25T06:00:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That study is a joke. Their conclusions are tentative and preliminary; their measurements are far from perfect. Their “affluent” household, the one which supposedly runs things, is one which makes $146,000 annually. Yes, because this is the conservative approach—using a low income cutoff will tend to underestimate the effect of wealth on policy (and it’s not like they only study a 146,000 a year household, or even just that group of such households—this is just their income cutoff for the ‘affluent’ bracket). And of course, the conclusions of a single pilot study will always be ‘tentative and preliminary’ (which, I note, is the authors’ own wording)—any scientific result needs independent corroberation and replication before it can be considered robust. But this does not invalidate the study as a data point, and it’s a far cry from making it a ‘joke’. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/77 "2014-08-25T06:26:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Is the problem the 85 rich people or the 3.5 billion poor people? If the problem if the poor people, the answer is globalization. Look at China, in living memory they had 20 million people starve to death and are now one of the largest economies on the planet. The way they did it was to legalize free enterprise, encourage foreign direct investment, and become friendly to business. Since they started this we have seen the largest reduction if global povery in history. More countries need to follow China’s lead and unleash their economies. Charity is great to alleviate the worst types of suffering but only capitalism can end poverty. > If the probem is the rich people then that is a solution in search of a problem. The solution is to take their money and give it to people who know better how to spend it. The idea that the rich have or could hijcack the political process is a myth designed to make people feel better about their envy. The tax rates on the rich are much higher than for other members of society, and the benefits they receive from the government are not greater than anyone else. Individual rich people such as Nancy Pelosi, Barak Obama, and Hillary Clinton have way too much influence but the most part it is not due to their being rich but their political abilities. How’s the air in China? I hear it’s nasty stuff. And all those workers who committed suicide at Foxcomm … makers of fine Apple products … I wonder why they did that? Maybe China isn’t the paradise you think it is … ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/78 "2014-08-25T06:31:17Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Well, you could always move to Sweden or any other country that taxes its people heavily and redistributes its wealth. Nobody’s stopping you, you’re free to go, any of you that feels that this country’s wealth is not distributed adequately. I got a better idea. I will stay here and make America a better country. YOU can get the hell out if you want, and don’t let the doorknob hit you on the butt on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/79 "2014-08-25T06:35:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you get to decide who is civilized, and what the indicia of civilization are? > > Perhaps we’re the richest country because we embraced a self-sufficient attitude for so much of our history, and did not allow ourselves to be shamed into paying for things which should be the responsibility of each person? Or maybe we got rich because we had a continent full of resources and a shortage of labor that led us to embrace automation, and we didn’t get fucked over in two successive world wars (granted, the Europeans kinda brought that on themselves, especially World War I which I see as the last gasp of the old European aristocracy, destroyed by its own incompetence). ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362/80 "2014-08-25T07:01:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s just left-wing propaganda. Wrong. **Der Trihs** may have overstated the case, but the health-care debate confirms something very sad about American right-wingers. Studies show that a single-payer model could provide care to _all_ Americans for the same total cost as is now spent for _some_ Americans. (There is a huge expensive bureaucracy, as well as individual doctor’s costly paperwork, dedicated to _denying_ care.) When this is brought up right here at SDMB, there are many whose response shows that they are resentful that “undeserving” might get free health-care. They don’t react to the arithmetic fact that their own costs wouldn’t rise. Even when the arithmetic is explained, they continue to voice resentment and fear that someone will get something “undeserved.” Now if psychoactive drug were administered to the right-winger, temporarily suppressing [their overly large fear centers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_political_orientation) and activating the [rational decision-making cortical area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex) shown to be larger in “liberals,” they might respond more rationally in the health-care debate. They aren’t, and they don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscene-wealth-worlds-richest-85-hold-the-same-wealth-as-3-5-billion-poor/679362.md?page=5)