# Obscure ingredients in body building and herbal products? Where to get info? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 27, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510 "2011-12-27T10:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/1 "2011-12-27T10:55:21Z")
Many herbal supplements and body building products have ingredients so obscure its difficult to find real info using google, sometimes you find nothing and all you can say is well based on the name I’m guessing it has something to do with octopi?? [http://www.dietpills.org/dietpills/igf-1-lozenges-review](http://www.dietpills.org/dietpills/igf-1-lozenges-review) Just as an example: > [@](#): > > Deer Antler Velvet Extract (33 mg) – This is an obscure ingredient used in unsuccessful weight loss products. Many people and organizations have claimed that deer antlers will increase red blood cell production, aerobic power, as well as muscular strength and endurance. All of those claims come from it’s ability to increase red blood cell production (red blood cells are produced in our bone marrow, and antlers are bones, therefore it’s hypothesized that digesting antlers you’ll increase red blood cell production). There is only one tiny problem: it doesn’t work at all! In fact, there was a clinical study performed and then published stating that deer antler velvet extract does not significantly increase red blood cell production, aerobic power, or muscle strength and endurance. There are a lot where the only source of info is the maker, and of course they can’t be trusted. But its so obscure a study or info from other sources is not out there yet(or out there but not in english). Probably a waste of time but I was wondering if any government agency is devoted to investigating this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/2 "2011-12-27T14:17:44Z")
The relevant agency would be the FDA, but they don’t regulate supplements the same way they do drugs. Supplement manufacturers don’t need to register with the FDA, though they are responsible for making sure that the supplements are safe. Supposedly. The problem is that prosecuting after the fact is pretty pointless for the people who may have been harmed by the product. The upside for the supplement manufacturers is billions of dollars in sales for something that requires basically no regulation (as long as you don’t kill anyone with the stuff) and you can make up claims about efficacy with relative freedom. There are a handful of supplements that almost everyone agrees work, and most of them are simply concentrated versions of things you could get from a good diet: [ul] [li]fish oil (DHA/EPA), and vitamin E, though you could just eat more fatty fish like salmon, mackerel, etc.[/li][li]a multivitamin/multimineral tab probably isn’t a complete waste of money considering that commercially grown vegetables and factory farmed meat is pretty nutrition-poor[/li][li]additional vitamin D, or some decent sun exposure[/li][li]depending on your diet, zinc, magnesium, iodine, or potassium might be deficient[/li][li]creatine is about the only supplement I’ve seen recommended by everyone from biochemists to bodybuilders as an actual performance-enhancing supplement that has measurable and repeatable effects[/li][/ul] Note that everything except creatine could easily be at sufficient levels with a good clean diet consisting of whole foods i.e.: lots of vegetables and lean meats, few grains and starches. Unless you’re going to do a cycle of steroids, eating well and training regularly are the best things you could do for increasing muscle mass and improving body composition. Aside from a few supplements that you, individually, might need to fill in gaps in your nutrition, most of these substances are a complete waste of money. There are no miracle cures sold in five easy payments of $29.95. Obscure or exotic ingredients with overblown claims of efficacy will, at best, be worthless. At worst, they can be actively harmful. After all, [phen-fen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenfluramine/phentermine) worked, and initially appeared to be safe. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/3 "2011-12-28T20:14:17Z")
> [@Sleel](#): > > The relevant agency would be the FDA, but they don’t regulate supplements the same way they do drugs. Supplement manufacturers don’t need to register with the FDA, though they are responsible for making sure that the supplements are safe. Supposedly. The problem is that prosecuting after the fact is pretty pointless for the people who may have been harmed by the product. The upside for the supplement manufacturers is billions of dollars in sales for something that requires basically no regulation (as long as you don’t kill anyone with the stuff) and you can make up claims about efficacy with relative freedom. Nonsense. Supplement manufacturers are most certainly registered with FDA, and most certainly are required to comply with GMP regulations. What is true is that FDA does not have premarket approval authority over supplements as they do over drugs, and therefore cannot prevent supplement manufacturers from making spurious claims – but they definitely (and do) prosecute for it, as well as for other labeling violations and safety violations. Advertising is regulated by the FTC. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/4 "2011-12-28T20:28:05Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Nonsense. Supplement manufacturers are most certainly registered with FDA, and most certainly are required to comply with GMP regulations. What is true is that FDA does not have premarket approval authority over supplements as they do over drugs, and therefore cannot prevent supplement manufacturers from making spurious claims – but they definitely (and do) prosecute for it, as well as for other labeling violations and safety violations. Advertising is regulated by the FTC. Introducing, [Mr Orrin Hatch.](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us/politics/21hatch.html?pagewanted=all) > [@](#): > > But by the early 1990s, the Food and Drug Administration had become uneasy about the growing number of exotic product and health claims, particularly after more than 20 deaths were attributed to a “natural” sleep remedy. After the agency conducted raids across the country to confiscate supplements deemed unsafe or sold for unapproved uses. Mr. Hatch came to the rescue. > > Under legislation he pushed through Congress, nutritional supplement companies could introduce products without F.D.A. approval, and make general health claims without proving their effectiveness or safety. The legislation covered a wide range of products — not just vitamins and minerals, but also herbs, essential oils and other substances — and was written to give companies a lot of leeway in their marketing claims. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/5 "2011-12-28T21:33:24Z")
Not a governmental agency but a good resource that you may be able to access via your library (or can spend yourself on a subscription) - [Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database](http://naturaldatabase.therapeuticresearch.com/home.aspx?cs=&s=ND). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/6 "2011-12-28T23:03:38Z")
Congress has ensured more than just taking away approval powers for the FDA. Budgets are deliberately limited so that active investigations are difficult. Basically, the FDA doesn’t have the resources to get involved unless people are dying or at least getting seriously ill. They can’t possibly investigate each and every product and each and every claim. Neither can anyone else. It will stay this way as long as billions of dollars are made by the hucksters and fraudsters. My advice is simple: if you can’t verify an ingredient don’t use it. Yes, this pretty much eliminates the entire contents of health food stores. And? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/7 "2011-12-29T02:18:30Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Congress has ensured more than just taking away approval powers for the FDA. Budgets are deliberately limited so that active investigations are difficult. > > Basically, the FDA doesn’t have the resources to get involved unless people are dying or at least getting seriously ill. They can’t possibly investigate each and every product and each and every claim. Neither can anyone else. It will stay this way as long as billions of dollars are made by the hucksters and fraudsters. > > My advice is simple: if you can’t verify an ingredient don’t use it. Yes, this pretty much eliminates the entire contents of health food stores. And? Yes, up until very recently (last year I believe) many “testosterone boosters” sold in health stores and GNC-like shops actually contained anabolic steroids and other illegal substances due to this flimsy or non-existent regulation. Companies made a killing (sometimes literally) with these products because they were _so_ effective and had no oversight from any regulating agency. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/8 "2011-12-29T13:18:01Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Nonsense. Supplement manufacturers are most certainly registered with FDA, and most certainly are required to comply with GMP regulations. What is true is that FDA does not have premarket approval authority over supplements as they do over drugs, and therefore cannot prevent supplement manufacturers from making spurious claims – but they definitely (and do) prosecute for it, as well as for other labeling violations and safety violations. Advertising is regulated by the FTC. Nonsense, yourself. From the FDA website: > [@](#): > > the dietary supplement or dietary ingredient manufacturer is responsible for ensuring that a dietary supplement or ingredient is safe before it is marketed. FDA is responsible for taking action against any unsafe dietary supplement product after it reaches the market. Generally, manufacturers do not need to register their products with FDA nor get FDA approval before producing or selling dietary supplements. The later bit about truthful labeling just means that it must contain what it says it contains. [This page](http://www.fda.gov/Food/LabelingNutrition/LabelClaims/ucm111447.htm) has all the requirements for the claims a supplement manufacturer is allowed to make. Note that they are far from rigorous in even these requirements, and on that first page make note of the fact that they are not required to disclose to the public any information about efficacy or safety. The release of that information is at the discretion of the company making the product. The FDA claims no responsibility to disseminate that information. They do exactly what I said they do; prosecute in the event that there has been a problem. After the fact. Not before. There is no proactive protection of the consumer in place for the supplement market. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/9 "2011-12-29T14:16:25Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Yes, up until very recently (last year I believe) many “testosterone boosters” sold in health stores and GNC-like shops actually contained anabolic steroids and other illegal substances due to this flimsy or non-existent regulation. Companies made a killing (sometimes literally) with these products because they were _so_ effective and had no oversight from any regulating agency. I hadn’t heard about this - do you know which products these were? I do remember when they yanked androstenedione after Mark McGwire mentioned that he used it, and when they banned hydroxycut (well, made them remove the ephedrine, which renders it pretty much useless), possibly in belated response to Orioles rookie pitcher Steve Belcher dying in 2003 from a huge overdose of it. I used both products when they were legal, and found them safe and effective. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/10 "2011-12-29T20:33:11Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I hadn’t heard about this - do you know which products these were? > > I do remember when they yanked androstenedione after Mark McGwire mentioned that he used it, and when they banned hydroxycut (well, made them remove the ephedrine, which renders it pretty much useless), possibly in belated response to Orioles rookie pitcher Steve Belcher dying in 2003 from a huge overdose of it. I used both products when they were legal, and found them safe and effective. Just off the top of my head, the most notorious were Gaspari Nutrition’s _Halodrol_ and another product (I forget the manufacturer) called _Superdrol._ Both have been subsequently pulled from the market (in Halodrol’s case, it was pulled and replaced with a legal, non-anabolic substance). ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-ingredients-in-body-building-and-herbal-products-where-to-get-info/607510/11 "2012-01-02T08:13:16Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Nonsense. Supplement manufacturers are most certainly registered with FDA, and most certainly are required to comply with GMP regulations. What is true is that FDA does not have premarket approval authority over supplements as they do over drugs, and therefore cannot prevent supplement manufacturers from making spurious claims – but they definitely (and do) prosecute for it, as well as for other labeling violations and safety violations. Advertising is regulated by the FTC. > [@Sleel](#): > > Nonsense, yourself. From the FDA website: > > > [@](#): > > > > the dietary supplement or dietary ingredient manufacturer is responsible for ensuring that a dietary supplement or ingredient is safe before it is marketed. FDA is responsible for taking action against any unsafe dietary supplement product after it reaches the market. Generally, manufacturers do not need to register their products with FDA nor get FDA approval before producing or selling dietary supplements. > > The later bit about truthful labeling just means that it must contain what it says it contains. [This page](http://www.fda.gov/Food/LabelingNutrition/LabelClaims/ucm111447.htm) has all the requirements for the claims a supplement manufacturer is allowed to make. Note that they are far from rigorous in even these requirements, and on that first page make note of the fact that they are not required to disclose to the public any information about efficacy or safety. The release of that information is at the discretion of the company making the product. > > The FDA claims no responsibility to disseminate that information. They do exactly what I said they do; prosecute in the event that there has been a problem. After the fact. Not before. There is no proactive protection of the consumer in place for the supplement market. You didn’t actually read what I wrote, did you? Yes, Senator Hatch’s act precludes premarket approval of dietary supplements, exactly as I said. The nonsense part of your post is this: > [@](#): > > Supplement manufacturers don’t need to register with the FDA which is false, though it is true that they don’t need to register each product – if that’s what you meant, then perhaps you should have said so. As for FDA’s enforcement authority, I’ll repeat part of your quote: > [@](#): > > FDA is responsible for taking action against any unsafe dietary supplement product after it reaches the market. Note that they do not have to wait until someone is harmed. FDA is aware of many unsafe ingredients, and can force withdrawal if such ingredients appear on the label; if they are in the formulation and do not appear on the label, then the supplement is both unsafe and misbranded, and both are actionable. Even if all ingredients are generally recognized as safe, they had better appear on the label, or the supplement is misbranded. If non-food ingredients are recognized as safe for some uses, but not approved for food use, they can’t be used in supplements. The FDA is also required to perform GMP inspections of supplement manufacturers. Finally, while the claims made for supplements generally do not need to be approved before marketing, both the law and regulations promulgated by FDA restrict the claims that can be made.