# Obscure nursery rhymes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 19, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098 "2004-10-19T20:08:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/1 "2004-10-19T20:08:30Z")
I recently saw a new printing of _Chas. Addams’ Mother Goose_ (originally published in 1967). It’s nursery rhymes with Addams’ illustrations – I don’t need to tell you what that means! 😃 But what I noticed was that some were rhymes I’d never heard of before. For instance: Little King Pippin, he built a great hall Pie-crust and pastry-crust, that was its wall The windows were made of black pudding and white And slated with pancakes, you ne’er saw the like! Hickory dickory dare! A pig went up in the air! The man in brown He brought it down Hickory dickory dare! One moisty, misty morning When cloudy was the weather I took a walk and met a man Clothed all in leather Clothed all in leather Wit a cap under his chin Say how do you do, And how do you do, And how do you do again That reminded me of other times I’ve run across nursery rhymes in English that I did not remember from my childhood. We used to say “See-saw, Marjorie Daw . . .” and that was it. Not until years later did I learn the rhyme goes on: See-saw, Marjorie Daw Johnny shall have a new master Dobbin shall get but a penny a day Because he can’t work any faster I also learned that “Marjorie Daw” was slang for a slut or slattern – which cast a new light on this variation: See-saw, Marjorie Daw Sold her bed and lay upon stray Now, wasn’t she a silly slut To sell her bed and lie upon dirt! I’d heard the phrase, “The house that Jack built,” but it was only about 10 years ago that I found the rhyme it came from: This is the knife with the handle of horn That killed the cock that crowed in the morn That waked the priest all shaven and shorn That married the groom all tattered and torn Unto the maiden all forlorn That milked the cow That sat on the dog That killed the cat That ate the rat That turned the malt That lay in the house that Jack built I first encountered “Solomon Grundy” as a DC comics villain (a sort of giant zombie). I didn’t find out until later that there was a nursery rhyme: Solomon Grundy Born on Monday Christened on Tuesday Married on Wednesday Took ill Thursday Grew worse Friday Died on Saturday Buried on Sunday And that was the end Of Solomon Grundy Do you know of any nursery rhymes that you encountered as an adult but never heard as a child? And – why are some better-known than others? Is it a generational thing? Do some rhymes just get forgotten? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/2 "2004-10-19T21:35:04Z")
Rereading the above, I find that some of these obscure nursery rhymes have a rather grim tone. Maybe that’s why they fade way? Nowadays, parents only want to teach their children shiny, happy nursery rhymes? ---
**Author:** ![AllShookDown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d9b06d/32.png) [@AllShookDown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AllShookDown)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/3 "2004-10-19T21:39:16Z")
I knew all of those except the “King Pippin” one. I was a little girl in the early 60’s and we didn’t have the huge selection of childrens’ books there seems to be now. I think that probably has a lot to do with it if kids these days don’t know many nursery rhymes. I’m not around kids much so I don’t really know. The books I remember having were Mother Goose, A Child’s Garden of Verses (which had been my father’s), The Tall Book of Make-Believe, Make Way For Ducklings, and a few Little Golden Books. Otherwise, books came from the library and all the library had was one small wall of children’s books. One of my favorite old-timers: There was a little girl who had a little curl right in the middle of her forehead. When she was good she was very, very good but when she was bad she was horrid. ---
**Author:** ![helieo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@helieo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/helieo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/4 "2004-10-19T21:57:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One moisty, misty morning > When cloudy was the weather > I took a walk and met a man > Clothed all in leather > Clothed all in leather > Wit a cap under his chin > Say how do you do, > And how do you do, > And how do you do again Well I grew up in England and am familiar with this nursery rhyme. What I always found odd was the American version of “Ring Around the Rosies”. In England it goes like this: Ring around the rosies A pocket full of posies Atichoo Atichoo It all falls down. The nursery rhyme refers to the Black Plaque at which time the sufferer would get red rings on the cheeks, sneeze, and die. The pocket full of posies were the herbs they carried hoping to fend off the disease. I could never figure out why the American version substituted “Ashes” for Atichoo. Doesn’t make sense. When I was a kid you used to get a bunch of girls (boys were too busy playing football) and you’d hold hands and go in a circle, then when the “it all falls down” line comes up, you’d all fall down. Fun when you’re in primary school. Another nursery rhyme I loved was “The Bells of St. Clements”, oranges and lemons… there was another playground game for that also. But memory fails me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/5 "2004-10-19T22:33:08Z")
> [@helieo](#): > > Well I grew up in England and am familiar with this nursery rhyme. A lot of English nursery rhymes never seem to have made it across the Atlantic. I never heard the “Bells of St. Clemens” rhyme until I read Orwell’s _1984._ > [@helieo](#): > > What I always found odd was the American version of “Ring Around the Rosies”. In England it goes like this: > > Ring around the rosies > A pocket full of posies > Atichoo > Atichoo > It all falls down. > > The nursery rhyme refers to the Black Plaque at which time the sufferer would get red rings on the cheeks, sneeze, and die. The pocket full of posies were the herbs they carried hoping to fend off the disease. That could be a thread in itself. A lot of nursery rhymes have a historical background most people don’t know about. I once read that “London Bridge is falling down” is about a Viking invasion of England. And “Little Jack Horner” was about some politico getting a plum position in the Church or the civil service, I forget which. ---
**Author:** ![Lisa-go-Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Lisa-go-Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lisa-go-Blind)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/6 "2004-10-19T22:41:14Z")
> [@helieo](#): > > Well I grew up in England and am familiar with this nursery rhyme. What I always found odd was the American version of “Ring Around the Rosies”. In England it goes like this: > > Ring around the rosies > A pocket full of posies > Atichoo > Atichoo > It all falls down. > > The nursery rhyme refers to the Black Plaque at which time the sufferer would get red rings on the cheeks, sneeze, and die. The pocket full of posies were the herbs they carried hoping to fend off the disease. I could never figure out why the American version substituted “Ashes” for Atichoo. Doesn’t make sense. Actually, this is [not true](http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/7 "2004-10-19T22:46:59Z")
> [@Lisa-go-Blind](#): > > Actually, this is [not true](http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm). Snopes’ analysis assumes the rhyme, if it were about the plague, would have to date from the Black Death of the 14th Century. Not so. There was another bubonic plague epidemic in England in the 17th Century, around the same time as the Great Fire of London. The rhyme could date from then. Still odd, though, that it was never recorded in print until the 19th Century. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/8 "2004-10-19T22:57:41Z")
And I just e-mailed snopes to point that out. Let’s see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![helieo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@helieo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/helieo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/9 "2004-10-19T23:25:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Snopes’ analysis assumes the rhyme, if it were about the plague, would have to date from the Black Death of the 14th Century. Not so. There was another bubonic plague epidemic in England in the 17th Century, around the same time as the Great Fire of London. The rhyme could date from then. Still odd, though, that it was never recorded in print until the 19th Century. I always assumed it that it was the plaque that the Fire of London vanquished. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/10 "2004-10-19T23:29:15Z")
Snopes does mention the 1665 plague in that article. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/11 "2004-10-19T23:32:03Z")
Actually, reading that Snopes article, most of it makes sense…but I strongly object to this statement: > [@](#): > > For the “plague” explanation of “Ring Around the Rosie” to be true, we have to believe that children were reciting this nursery rhyme continuously for over five centuries, yet not one person in that five hundred year span found it popular enough to merit writing it down. That would in fact be a perfectly ordinary situation - they’re being disingenuous by suggesting an abscence of pre-1800s publication is proof of abscence. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/12 "2004-10-19T23:36:16Z")
Sorry for the multiple posting :wally …but to return to the OP, like **AllShookDown** I knew all expect King Pippin…but a different version of this: Hickory dickory dock The mouse ran up the clock The clock struck one The mouse ran down Hickory dickory dock (Footnote - a linguist will hopefully be along shortly, to confirm my suspicion that the mis-rhyming of ‘one’ and ‘down’, or in the alternate fourth line “And down he ran”, are due to changes in pronunciation subsequent to the rhyme’s creation…) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/13 "2004-10-19T23:53:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Rereading the above, I find that some of these obscure nursery rhymes have a rather grim tone. “According to rural legend … the Hogfather is a winter myth figure who, on Hogswatchnight, gallops from house to house on a crude sledge drawn by four tusked wild boars to deliver presents of sausages, black puddings, pork scratchings, and ham to all children who hjave been good. He says Ho Ho Ho a log. Children who have been bad get a bag full of bloody bones (It’s these little details which tell you it’s a tale for the little folk).” –Terry Pratchett, _Soul Music_ ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/14 "2004-10-20T00:00:42Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > they’re being disingenuous by suggesting an abscence of pre-1800s publication is proof of abscence. No, no they aren’t. Children’s rhymes were extensively collected back then. Lack of being recorded is damn good evidence it didn’t exists. Besides, the earliest records of the Rosie rhymes have little or nothing in common with the more recent ones, and it’s only the more recent ones that have the key phrases people think are related to the plague. Rose Around the Rosie 100% positive did not come from any plague, and the idea that it did is a rather annoying bit of nonsense that people should know better than to repeat, because the alleged explanations of the phrases don’t even make sense. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/15 "2004-10-20T00:06:37Z")
I’m not disputing Snopes’ basic assertion, that the rhyme and the plague are unconnected. It’s just that one comment, which is a misrepresentation of the whole principle of oral tradition, that riled me. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/16 "2004-10-20T00:10:20Z")
This jewel was actually within reach of my computer desk. It’s from my own childhood Mother Goose book that was published no later than the 1940’s. Here’s the first verse only: > [@](#): > > “Little Dicky Dilver” > > Little Dicky Dilver > Had a wife of silver; > He took a stick and > broke her back, > And threw her > in the river. My, those were the good old days… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/17 "2004-10-20T01:11:48Z")
The funny thing (to me) about one of those, is that I had not thought of “Misty Moisty Morning” as a kiddies’ rhyme exactly, but more as a folk song . I associate it mainly with recordings by Steeley Span (Hmm, sign of age there:) ) On reflection, it _does_ seem, given the “boy meets girl” them to be more like a “proper” song, but…brain too sleepy to make sense. Here’s the rest of teh song/nursery rhyme for anyone intersted. > **[ONE MISTY MOISTY MORNING Lyrics - STEELEYE SPAN | eLyrics.net](https://www.elyrics.net/read/s/steeleye-span-lyrics/one-misty-moisty-morning-lyrics.html)** > > One misty moisty morning when cloudy was the weather I met with an old man a-clothed all in leather He was clothed all i... (Ohhhhhh and I msut one day get a record player so as to resurrect my long-unheard old LPS!) ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/18 "2004-10-20T01:15:27Z")
My mom has a book of nonsense verses that I long to get my hands on. It includes such like: \*As I was standing in the road, As quiet as could be, A great big ugly man up up, And tied his horse to me. … Ah, lovely Devon, Where it rains eight days out of seven. … If you are a gentleman, As I suppose you to be, You’ll neither laugh nor smile At the tickling of your knee. … I eat my peas with honey, I’ve done it all my life. They do taste kind of funny, But it keeps them on the knife.\* These and many more were accompanied by some of the sweetest, drollest illustrations I’ve ever seen in a child’s book. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/19 "2004-10-20T01:24:49Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > My mom has a book of nonsense verses that I long to get my hands on. … :eek: Someone tell **Phouka** ’s mother to hire a bodyguard! Or at least to consult a nice nursery -rhyme or folky old wise witch for some protective spells. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098/20 "2004-10-20T01:35:38Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > The funny thing (to me) about one of those, is that I had not thought of “Misty Moisty Morning” as a kiddies’ rhyme exactly, but more as a folk song . I associate it mainly with recordings by Steeley Span (Hmm, sign of age there:) ) > > On reflection, it _does_ seem, given the “boy meets girl” them to be more like a “proper” song, but…brain too sleepy to make sense. Here’s the rest of teh song/nursery rhyme for anyone intersted. > > [ONE MISTY MOISTY MORNING Lyrics - STEELEYE SPAN | eLyrics.net](http://www.elyrics.net/go/s/Steeleye%20Span%20Lyrics/One%20Misty%20Moisty%20Morning%20Lyrics/) > > (Ohhhhhh and I msut one day get a record player so as to resurrect my long-unheard old LPS!) Chas. Addams’ illustration for that rhyme shows his creepy little girl (the one Wednesday in _The Addams Family_ was based on) meeting the Grim Reaper (wearing street clothes and a cap, not a shapeless robe) on a path in the park. She smiles and shakes his hand. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obscure-nursery-rhymes/270098.md?page=2)