# Observations of the 3rd Democratic Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 13, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136 "2019-09-13T00:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/121 "2019-09-14T19:30:50Z")
That is the wrong way of looking at it, and if you can’t understand why, I’m not going to be able to convince you. Think whatever you want. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/122 "2019-09-14T19:43:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If our country would doom itself to 4 more years of Trump to protect AR15s, we deserve Trump and all the damage he’s inflicting on us. Some voters don’t see that. They don’t wanted to be forced to do something, and do not understand or do not care about the damage Trump policies and actions cause. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/123 "2019-09-14T22:18:52Z")
I love Uncle Joe but can’t help but feel his moment passed. And Sanders’ candidacy this second time aroung still seems to me more about making a point than about governing. > [@Lamoral](#): > > All it does is put the NRA on the offensive, pumping a million free gallons into the fuel tank of their 12-cylinder propaganda engine. Just at the time when that particular organization seemed to be on their back foot. They and the Gun Retailers Association should send Beto a fruit basket. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/124 "2019-09-14T22:56:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Quick comment to add that I saw only clips of the debate but was impressed by some of Klobuchar’s responses. Not only was she witty, but she delivered a combination of epistemic and emotional substance. It’s too bad she probably won’t be around much longer, but I’d like to see her get more airtime. > > I think the only one who really lost the debate was Castro. And it’s probably good for Biden that Castro failed so miserably in his take-down attempt because we’d otherwise be spending a lot more time talking about some of Uncle Joe’s speaking gaffes. I totally agree. I’d also add as a moderate (or rank and file democrat as I call it) I came away thinking Klobuchar and Buttigieg reached out in their answers better than Biden did. On gun control Biden did a very good job but then again he was an architect of the Assault Weapons Ban in 94 so of course he should have done well on that. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/125 "2019-09-14T23:34:40Z")
You guys are losing your minds over Beto’s proposal, but let’s keep a bit of perspective here. When John Kerry was accepting the Democratic nomination in the summer of 2004, assault weapons were still illegal to sell, just as they had been throughout most of the Clinton administration. Talking about banning them again, but also buying back those that are already out there, is not nearly as radical as you are making it out to be. And the politics of gun control have changed since 2004. If Beto were proposing to do the same thing for handguns, shotguns, or hunting rifles, I would be with you. But I honestly think the group of people who love the AR-15 and would conceivably have the chance to vote for any Democrat next year is very small. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/126 "2019-09-14T23:51:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I strongly disagree with you guys. Most Americans favor stricter gun control. We need to nominate a candidate who’ll actually tackle this issue. Beto’s response earned him a lot of respect in my book. You might think that, but when people find out that there already is a lot of “common sense gun control”, and that UBC makes selling or transferring a firearm like being required to sell your car through a car dealer, many change their mind. > [@Babale](#): > > He didn’t say he wants to take away your guns - all of them. He said he wants to take away military grade weapons and ammunition, the types designed to shred you on the inside so that you bleed to death without being able to shoot back at the American troops who shot you. Except that now, the shooter is a nerdy white kid, and the target is a bunch of elementary school children. Like most grabbers, Beto doen’t know what he’s talking about. ‘Military grade’ weapons have full-auto capability (‘machine gun’), and that is the only functional difference. “Military grade” rifle and pistol ammunition is FMJ, full metal jacket. It is designed exactly to put a hole through someone and take them out of the fight, preferably taking two more out while they get their comrade to medical care. And firearms that are a match for military weapons for the citizenry is a feature, not a bug, although I am sure many disagree. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/127 "2019-09-14T23:54:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > …If Beto were proposing to do the same thing for handguns, shotguns, or hunting rifles, I would be with you. But I honestly think the group of people who love the AR-15 and would conceivably have the chance to vote for any Democrat next year is very small. I think Beto very likely wants to do the same thing for handguns, shotguns, and hunting rifles. I think he isn’t alone, either. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/128 "2019-09-15T00:09:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … > Gun violence is a real public health problem. … > > ([Source for figures and quote above - Pew](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/08/16/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/)) > > I don’t argue for military weapon availability but having their elimination be THE flag to wave is a mostly ineffective feel good signifier. > > [Here’s another way to parse it:](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/02/gun-violence-children-actually-experience/582964/)Framing the conversation as confiscation is dumb even if it is met with applause by some of the activist class. It’s the action that would do the least good and that galvanizes opposition the most. Requiring background checks, having a national red flag law, requiring licensing before purchase of a gun, OTOH[all have fairly bipartisan support](http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/NPR_PBS-NewsHour_Marist-Poll-USA-NOS-and-Tables_1909091400.pdf#page=3), _including among most gun owners_. Having a high-capacity magazine ammunition ban even gets almost half of owners on board. > > … 10000 murders a year? Compared to 500000 Americans dead from tobacco? Small potatoes. Banning the sale of the mags is one thing, banning the possession is stupid. Sociologists have shown it’s not guns, it’s the media for the amount of mass and school shootings- the media glorifying the killers. That’s the main cause. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/129 "2019-09-15T00:10:57Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > He didn’t say he wants to take away your guns - all of them. He said he wants to take away military grade weapons and ammunition, the types designed to shred you on the inside so that you bleed to death without being able to shoot back at the American troops who shot you. Except that now, the shooter is a nerdy white kid, and the target is a bunch of elementary school children. Oddly they dont sell any "military grade weapons " in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/130 "2019-09-15T00:14:07Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m not sure it matters. The NRA is going to have all of its efforts behind defeating whoever is the Democratic nominee, even if the nominee has an A rating from them. I dont fucking care about the NRA and it’s 5 million members. I care about the 70Million **NON** -NRA gun owners, the ones that would kinda support mild gun control, but now Beto has them running scared due to “they are coming to take our gun away!” . Because now they actually admit they are doing so. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/131 "2019-09-15T00:18:04Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If our country would doom itself to 4 more years of Trump to protect AR15s, we deserve Trump and all the damage he’s inflicting on us. No, and in fact the voters are in favor of a ban on\* importing and selling\* “assault weapons”. But door to door confiscation? And if they start with AR15s, what’s next? That’s what the 70Million moderate gun owners will think. Let say they decided to ban the manufacture of cars and trucks that get less than 15MPG- sure that would work. vs They will come out to your house and tow your truck away and junk it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/132 "2019-09-15T00:22:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont fucking care about the NRA and it’s 5 million members. I care about the 70Million **NON** -NRA gun owners, the ones that would kinda support mild gun control, but now Beto has them running scared due to “they are coming to take our gun away!” . Because now they actually admit they are doing so. Oh, it doesn’t matter. Beto is not getting the nomination and nobody is going to care that the other candidates didn’t immediately admonish him. This blip will not outlive Primary season. But it could be trouble for him if he does pivot to a Senate run in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/133 "2019-09-15T00:24:02Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > … Talking about banning them again, but also buying back those that are already out there, is not nearly as radical as you are making it out to be. … Not “buying back” forced _confiscation._ Nothing voluntary. That’s what makes it so wrong. And did beto mention “buying”? Well, sorta, but not in his famous quote: _"Hell yes, we’re going to take your AR-15, your AK-47. We’re not going to allow it to be used against our fellow Americans anymore.”_ To be fair Harris and Booker also want to confiscate guns: > **[Coming For Your AR-15? Beto O'Rourke Scrambles Dems' Gun Message](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/beto-orourke-hell-yes-guns-scrambles-dem-message_n_5d7cdbb2e4b00d6905997973)** > > Democrats have long contended their support for gun control laws doesn't mean they want to take away law-abiding citizen's firearms. \*But O’Rourke’s remarks worry Democrats like Warren Varley, who lost a race for a state legislative seat in Iowa last year. “The lines like, ‘We’re gonna come and take your AR-15,’ just play into the fears that the NRA has been stoking, and a proposal like that is just going to make rural Iowa and I think probably rural areas elsewhere more red,” Varley said. “I think that’s just a bridge too far for most rural folks, and it conjures up images of the government coming in and invading your home and images of big government trampling over the rights of individuals.”\* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/134 "2019-09-15T00:25:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Oh, it doesn’t matter. Beto is not getting the nomination and nobody is going to care that the other candidates didn’t immediately admonish him. This blip will not outlive Primary season. > > But it could be trouble for him if he does pivot to a Senate run in Texas. I bet the NRA will be running the clip during 2020, no matter who is the candidate. And Booker and Harris agree. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/135 "2019-09-15T00:31:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You guys are losing your minds over Beto’s proposal, but let’s keep a bit of perspective here. When John Kerry was accepting the Democratic nomination in the summer of 2004, assault weapons were still illegal to sell, just as they had been throughout most of the Clinton administration. Talking about banning them again, but also buying back those that are already out there, is not nearly as radical as you are making it out to be. This is absolutely true and isn’t receiving enough emphasis. Our memories are infamously short, but, yes: these weapons have been illegal to sell in the very recent past----and the republic failed to fall. Everyone was basically _fine_ when these weapons were not available. We could be fine again! > [@SlackerInc](#): > > If Beto were proposing to do the same thing for handguns, shotguns, or hunting rifles, I would be with you. But I honestly think the group of people who love the AR-15 and would conceivably have the chance to vote for any Democrat next year is very small. Yes. And the “slippery slope” argument is highly fallacious. For one thing, as just mentioned, we very recently lived through a period in which one class of weapons was illegal to sell, while many other classes of weapons remained quite freely available. No slope and no slip. If you can’t buy—or even own—an AR-15, there is ZERO precedent for that being equivalent to ‘no guns may be owned by private citizens.’ None. Zip. Bupkis. How would that even work, slippery-slope fans? ETA: in re consequences for Beto: the fundraising will tell the tale. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/136 "2019-09-15T00:52:35Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > He didn’t say he wants to take away your guns - all of them. He said he wants to take away military grade weapons and ammunition, the types designed to shred you on the inside so that you bleed to death without being able to shoot back at the American troops who shot you. Except that now, the shooter is a nerdy white kid, and the target is a bunch of elementary school children. Can you define “military grade”? It’s pretty silly actually, but it does serve the purpose of putting to rest the idea that Democrats don’t want to ban guns\*, confiscate guns, or any of the other denials that have been popular over the years. Of course that’s what they want to do. \*guns, multiple, not guns, all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/137 "2019-09-15T01:08:52Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Can you define “military grade”? > > It’s pretty silly actually, but it does serve the purpose of putting to rest the idea that Democrats don’t want to ban guns\*, confiscate guns, or any of the other denials that have been popular over the years. Of course that’s what they want to do. > > \*guns, multiple, not guns, all. God our politics is so sad. This issue is so damn important to you that you would literally prefer an admitted sexual assaulter (not to mention all his other faults!) stay in office than some relatively honest and decent official who thinks some types of guns should be illegal. That’s incredibly nuts to me, and makes me pessimistic about the future of this country. And even more pessimistic about the future of how women and girls are going to be treated. How does that get bridged? Are there any circumstances you could imagine in which you’d prefer a relatively honest and decent Democrat who is party line on guns over a sexual abuser Republican who is on your side on guns? Or is this just how it is, that guns really are more important than refraining from elevating abusers of women? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/138 "2019-09-15T01:15:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 10000 murders a year? Compared to 500000 Americans dead from tobacco? Small potatoes. > > Banning the sale of the mags is one thing, banning the possession is stupid. > > Sociologists have shown it’s not guns, it’s the media for the amount of mass and school shootings- the media glorifying the killers. That’s the main cause. First let’s get figures right. About 40,000 gun related deaths in the US each year. Fewer murders than suicides. Roughly the same number of people as die of breast cancer. Is breast cancer also small potatoes because something else kills more? No idea wtf you are talking about with “sociologists have shown …” but my point remains that mass shootings are horrible, school shootings tragic, but they are not the driver of those 40,000. Kids are in fact safer in their schools than in their and their friends’ homes. Yes some weapons amplify the harms in those rare events but the public health approach would be more interested in lowering the bigger sources of those death numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/139 "2019-09-15T01:19:05Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > BTW, I agree with you about that. I hope he’ll soon be out of the race for this very reason. Well, if Senators can be bought and paid for, why can’t voters be bought? We _do_ have unrestricted money in politics, after all. One thing I love about Yang is his idea to put lobbyists out of business by giving every voter an allowance to be used for political contribution(s). The influence of lobbyists would diminish and politicians would be encouraged to actually serve the people. This is straight up genius. Beto did serious damage to the cause of gun gun control. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/observations-of-the-3rd-democratic-debate/840136/140 "2019-09-15T01:25:29Z")
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