# Obsessive atheists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893 "2013-08-22T18:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/81 "2013-08-23T03:25:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That smear didn’t take as long as I expected. > And it _was_ expected. > > edited to add: [Religion in Nazi Germany.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany) From that article: > [@Wiki](#): > > On October 13, 1933, Deputy Führer Rudolf Hess issued a decree stating: “No National Socialist may suffer any detriment on the ground that he does not profess any particular faith or confession or on the ground that he does not make any religious profession at all.” However, the regime strongly opposed “godless communism” and most of Germany’s freethinking (freigeist), atheist, and largely left-wing organizations were banned the same year. And in a speech made during the negotiations for the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933, Hitler argued against secular schools, stating: “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.” One of the groups closed down by the Nazi regime was the German Freethinkers League. Christians appealed to Hitler to end anti-religious and anti-Church propaganda promulgated by Free Thinkers, and within Hitler’s Nazi Party some atheists were quite vocal in their anti-Christian views, especially Martin Bormann. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/82 "2013-08-23T03:28:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > :rolleyes:Nice try. The Nazis were not Christians and acted on no Christian doctrine. They were a bunch of crazed atheists. No they weren’t. The [relationship of Nazism to Christianity is complex](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian); but that doesn’t mean the Nazis were atheists. Himmler (who was [one of the more anti-Christian Nazi leaders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler#Mysticism_and_symbolism)) considered atheists to be [“overbearing, megalomaniac and foolish…not adequate for our society”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS#Oath_of_the_SS)–which coming from _him_ I will count as high praise. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/83 "2013-08-23T03:33:40Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Having started a thread in the Pit when it wasn’t warranted, I thought I’d go with the least incendiary category, so that’s why I placed it where I did. It’s OK in GD if TPTB feel it’s warranted. 😉 I was just predicting the future. _looks at forum we’re now in_ OMG, I must be a prophet! ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/84 "2013-08-23T03:35:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Hitlers Germany?? Nope. Do you remember what the Nazi’s had on their belt buckle? And is there something you think the [staff report](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian) from the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board missed? > [@](#): > > That non-believers can be every bit as righteous, jerkish, intolerant and nut-job evangelical. In this, they succeed admirably. When you take out your typo (non-) you become a prophet. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/85 "2013-08-23T03:38:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That smear didn’t take as long as I expected. > And it _was_ expected. > > edited to add: [Religion in Nazi Germany.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany) Thanks for the link. And lest you think that the earlier days of the Nazis are the same as when they could work their will with impunity, here’s more from you beloved site: (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > A number of historians maintain that the Nazis had a general covert plan, which some argue existed before the Nazis’ rose to power,[93] to destroy Christianity within the Reich.[63][94][95][96][97][98][99] To what extent a plan to subordinate the churches and limit their role in the country’s life existed before the Nazi rise to power, and exactly who among the Nazi leadership supported such a move remains contested."[93] However other historians maintain no such plan existed.[100][101][102][103] Summarizing a 1945 Office of Strategic Services report, New York Times columnist Joe Sharkey, stated that the Nazis had a plan to “subvert and destroy German Christianity,” which was to be accomplished through control and subversion of the churches and to be completed after the war.[62][104] However the report stated this goal was limmited to a “sector of the National Socialist party,” namely Alfred Rosenberg and Baldur von Schirach.[105] Historian Roger Griffin maintains:\*\* “There is no doubt that in the long run Nazi leaders such as Hitler and Himmler intended to eradicate Christianity just as ruthlessly as any other rival ideology, even if in the short term they had to be content to make compromises with it.”\*\*[63] ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/86 "2013-08-23T03:40:39Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The Nazis were in no way Christian…or religious. They were driven by a desire to reclaim the pre Christian German past as a single master race…and biology. Their hatred of the Jews was driven by genes. It is true that gas hadn’t been invented during the time of the Spanish Inquisition and during the pogroms. Both programs conducted by the very cream of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/87 "2013-08-23T03:42:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > See Post 27. The last two words will do. The last two words in Post 27 are “massive fail,” which **won’t** do. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/88 "2013-08-23T03:46:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Thanks for the link. And lest you think that the earlier days of the Nazis are the same as when they could work their will with impunity, here’s more from you beloved site: (bolding mine) > > > [@](#): > > > > A number of historians maintain that the Nazis had a general covert plan, which some argue existed before the Nazis’ rose to power,[93] to destroy Christianity within the Reich.[63][94][95][96][97][98][99] To what extent a plan to subordinate the churches and limit their role in the country’s life existed before the Nazi rise to power, and exactly who among the Nazi leadership supported such a move remains contested."[93] However other historians maintain no such plan existed.[100][101][102][103] Summarizing a 1945 Office of Strategic Services report, New York Times columnist Joe Sharkey, stated that the Nazis had a plan to “subvert and destroy German Christianity,” which was to be accomplished through control and subversion of the churches and to be completed after the war.[62][104] However the report stated this goal was limmited to a “sector of the National Socialist party,” namely Alfred Rosenberg and Baldur von Schirach.[105] Historian Roger Griffin maintains: **“There is no doubt that in the long run Nazi leaders such as Hitler and Himmler intended to eradicate Christianity just as ruthlessly as any other rival ideology, even if in the short term they had to be content to make compromises with it.”** [63] Even if we stipulate that this is true, you’re _still_ not getting that “non-Christian” (or even “anti-Christian”) is not the same thing as “atheist”. The Taliban were and are non-Christian, and even anti-Christian, but it would be absurd to call them “atheists”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/89 "2013-08-23T03:47:23Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > No they weren’t. The [relationship of Nazism to Christianity is complex](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian); but that doesn’t mean the Nazis were atheists. Himmler (who was [one of the more anti-Christian Nazi leaders](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler#Mysticism_and_symbolism)) considered atheists to be [“overbearing, megalomaniac and foolish…not adequate for our society”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS#Oath_of_the_SS)–which coming from _him_ I will count as high praise. I agree with this. It is complicated. Especially when in the early days the Nazis were trying to gain support. I don’t put much credence into any evidence to the contrary that dates to the early to mid 1930s. But I will say this, as far as Naziism might be from atheism, the distance between Naziism and Christianity is parsecs farther. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/90 "2013-08-23T03:47:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Thanks for the link. And lest you think that the earlier days of the Nazis are the same as when they could work their will with impunity, here’s more from you beloved site: (bolding mine) That doesn’t necessarily make them atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/91 "2013-08-23T03:51:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Ah, there’s a theory I’ve heard before, though I don’t think it has come up yet in this thread: the theory that outspoken or angry atheists are such because they have issues with their (earthly) father. Right. Does Dawkins have issues with his father? Did he have a bad experience with religion? (Besides Christian morons writing him hate mail about evolution, I mean.) Did Hitchens? Do I? (Answer - no.) It is telling that so much of “rational” anti-atheist writing is along these lines. Even in the NY Times review if new atheist books are usually of the “he’s so impolite” and “there are hardly any Christians I know like that.” None of them even try to make the case for religion and the existence of God. Know what? It doesn’t matter if religious people live longer or shorter. It doesn’t matter if atheists don’t like their fathers or if fundamentalists want to shtup their mothers. It just like if a Baker Street Irregular argued for the actual existence of Sherlock Holmes due to them having fun at their meetings. I contend that religious people with half a brain (like most Dopers) know full well they don’t have a leg to stand on and do the theist shuffle to avoid an actual argument. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/92 "2013-08-23T03:54:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But I will say this, as far as Naziism might be from atheism, the distance between Naziism and Christianity is parsecs farther. This is simply a meaningless statement. For one thing, Nazism was a single political movement which lasted for about 25 years (ignoring related movements in other countries, postwar neo-Nazis, etc.). Christianity is a major world religion which has been around for 2,000 years, and has included viewpoints as different as those of Torquemada and Mr. Rogers. And atheism is simply a lack of belief in a supreme being, and is a component of ideologies and philosophies ranging from Marxism-Leninism to Ayn Rand’s Objectivism to American secular humanism. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/93 "2013-08-23T03:55:42Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Even if we stipulate that this is true, you’re _still_ not getting that “non-Christian” (or even “anti-Christian”) is not the same thing as “atheist”. The Taliban were and are non-Christian, and even anti-Christian, but it would be absurd to call them “atheists”. Oh, come on. Christians were killed and Jews were killed by the millions, even priests and rabbis. Are you arguing that that the Nazis were embracing of some other religions? Because if one is that hostile to all the prevalent religions, I think that qualifies as being atheistic. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/94 "2013-08-23T03:57:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, come on. Christians were killed and Jews were killed by the millions, even priests and rabbis. Are you arguing that that the Nazis were embracing of some other religions? Because if one is that hostile to all the prevalent religions, I think that qualifies as being atheistic. By this “logic” Osama bin Laden was an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/95 "2013-08-23T03:59:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree with this. It is complicated. Especially when in the early days the Nazis were trying to gain support. I don’t put much credence into any evidence to the contrary that dates to the early to mid 1930s. But I will say this, as far as Naziism might be from atheism, the distance between Naziism and Christianity is parsecs farther. No it isn’t, considering things like the persistence of the Gott Mit Uns (God With Us) belt buckles, but in any case, that still doesn’t make them atheists. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/96 "2013-08-23T04:05:55Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > This is simply a meaningless statement. For one thing, Nazism was a single political movement which lasted for about 25 years (ignoring related movements in other countries, postwar neo-Nazis, etc.). Christianity is a major world religion which has been around for 2,000 years, and has included viewpoints as different as those of Torquemada and Mr. Rogers. And atheism is simply a lack of belief in a supreme being, and is a component of ideologies and philosophies ranging from Marxism-Leninism to Ayn Rand’s Objectivism to American secular humanism. No. If you find comparing Naziism to atheism a bit of a stretch, comparing it to Christianity should make your head explode. Naziism thrives with a foundation of atheism much more easily than with people running to churches following the teachings of Jesus. “Do unto others” and “Love your brother” kinda gets in the way of “send another 10,000 to the gas chambers today” or “Dr. Mengele, this is Ruth. I’d like to see what she looks like as a lampshade.” ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/97 "2013-08-23T04:08:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No. If you find comparing Naziism to atheism a bit of a stretch, comparing it to Christianity should make your head explode. Naziism thrives with a foundation of atheism much more easily than with people running to churches following the teachings of Jesus. “Do unto others” and “Love your brother” kinda gets in the way of “send another 10,000 to the gas chambers today” or “Dr. Mengele, this is Ruth. I’d like to see what she looks like as a lampshade.” I was waiting for the “[No True Scotsman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)” fallacy, or, in this case, “No True Christian.” ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/98 "2013-08-23T04:10:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No. If you find comparing Naziism to atheism a bit of a stretch, comparing it to Christianity should make your head explode. Naziism thrives with a foundation of atheism much more easily than with people running to churches following the teachings of Jesus. “Do unto others” and “Love your brother” kinda gets in the way of “send another 10,000 to the gas chambers today” or “Dr. Mengele, this is Ruth. I’d like to see what she looks like as a lampshade.” Wow, you really haven’t studied ANY of Christian history, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Lazlo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lazlo/32/9678_2.png) [@Lazlo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazlo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/99 "2013-08-23T04:14:26Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > I was waiting for the “[No True Scotsman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)” fallacy, or, in this case, “No True Christian.” And with that, I got a bingo! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893/100 "2013-08-23T04:16:20Z")
> [@OurLordPeace](#): > > No it isn’t, considering things like the persistence of the Gott Mit Uns (God With Us) belt buckles, but in any case, that still doesn’t make them atheists. Riiight. And the eagle was there to show their environmentalism. And the swastika to celebrate the whirling log used by the Navaho in healing rituals. It was merely a bit of ceremonialism left over from WWI, when German soldiers had it emblazoned on their helmets. It had become a German rallying cry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obsessive-atheists/666893.md?page=6)