# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 121
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2401 "2016-02-25T12:22:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I’d say it was a\* possible hidden\* meaning, by by no means\*\* Obvious. \*\* Well, I’m not the one who claimed it was _obvious_. But it’s not really all that _hidden_, either. I have to admit, I never thought of it. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2402 "2016-02-25T13:14:12Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I’ve forgotten where I heard about the grape flavor popularity thing, though. Must have been on TV somewhere. _ **Family Guy** _, when they were bringing in Cleveland’s mail. He subscribed to a grape soda magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2403 "2016-02-25T16:16:40Z")
I didn’t realize this until TV Tropes brought it to my attention, so I don’t know how “obvious” it is… In the musical Fiddler on the Roof (and the original stories by Sholem Aleichem that it’s based on), Tevye tries to arrange a marriage between his daughter Tzeitel and the older, widowed butcher Lazar Wolf, who’s quite well off. This doesn’t go through, though, since Tzeitel loves her childhood friend Motel Kamzoil, a tailor. So…Tzeitel is the daughter of a milkman and Lazar Wolf is a butcher (who works with meat). Might Sholem Aleichem be indicating that a marriage between them would simply not be kosher? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2404 "2016-02-25T18:22:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Never heard it. Grape soda is indeed a staple stereotype, commonly called purple drank. Goes along with watermelon, fried chicken, and collard greens in racist cartoons. I’ve never heard of orange soda being used in this context though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2405 "2016-02-25T18:42:23Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Grape soda is indeed a staple stereotype, commonly called purple drank. Goes along with watermelon, fried chicken, and collard greens in racist cartoons. > > I’ve never heard of orange soda being used in this context though. This could be a East Coast or South thing, but never heard out here in CA. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2406 "2016-02-25T18:49:14Z")
The only other person I ever heard of being addicted to grape soda was Radar O’Reilly, so I always assumed it was a Corn Belt thing. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2407 "2016-02-25T19:44:48Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Grape soda is indeed a staple stereotype, commonly called purple drank. Purple drank is actually [something else](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_drank), a concoction containing cough syrup imbibed for the purpose of intoxication. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2408 "2016-02-25T22:37:46Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Grape soda is indeed a staple stereotype, commonly called purple drank. Goes along with watermelon, fried chicken, and collard greens in racist cartoons. As mentioned, “purple drank” refers to cough syrup mixed with soda like Sprite. There’s also a commercial drink product called “[Drank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drank_(soda))” that is a grape flavored soda. It’s a “non-energy drink”. That’s actually what I first heard of. It seems intentionally produced to mimic the cough syrup drink. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2409 "2016-02-26T03:04:41Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Grape soda is indeed a staple stereotype, commonly called purple drank. Goes along with watermelon, fried chicken, and collard greens in racist cartoons. > > I’ve never heard of orange soda being used in this context though. > [@DrDeth](#): > > This could be a East Coast or South thing, but never heard out here in CA. I’m betting an East Coast thing. I grew up among so many racists that I’m sure I would have heard of it had it been a Texas thing. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2410 "2016-02-26T06:00:16Z")
Not certain how obvious it was to anyone else, but in Escape from New York when Bob Hauk goes into the city to rescue the president, when he steps back form the empty escape capsule in the background there’s a white wall with two vertical blurry shadows on it. When you hear the laugh a guard spins and crosses in front of the shadow, and when he clears you see Romero walking forward from that spot. He had been standing there watching the entire thing. I always considered his laugh just his creepy entry, but if he had been watching Bob the whole time his laugh gained that much more power as he was laughing specifically at Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2411 "2016-02-26T13:38:59Z")
This isn’t Cafe Society related, but it’s apropos. I live in Orlando, but I have followed sports my whole life so I know that the Orlando Magic exist. Ms. Cups and I were waiting to get into the arena and I mentioned how big the section sponsored by Disney was (they have their own pavilion) and her response was “Well, yeah, they’re called the Magic after all” Literally never put the two and two together before in my life ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2412 "2016-02-26T14:05:19Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > This isn’t Cafe Society related, but it’s apropos. > > I live in Orlando, but I have followed sports my whole life so I know that the Orlando Magic exist. Ms. Cups and I were waiting to get into the arena and I mentioned how big the section sponsored by Disney was (they have their own pavilion) and her response was “Well, yeah, they’re called the Magic after all” > > Literally never put the two and two together before in my life I was similarly confused by the _Utah Jazz_. It’s hard to think of anything less apropos than associating something from New Orleans with Utah\*. I don’t follow sports at _all_. When I learned that Utah acquired the team from New Orleans it all made sense. Although changing the name to “The Saints” would’ve made more sense. (Therefore keeping an association with Jazz – “When the Saints go Marching In” – and making a link with Mormon Utah) \*I’ve remarked before on the culture shock I experienced in going from a snowy November in Utah via airplane to a balmy night in New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2413 "2016-02-26T16:30:19Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I was similarly confused by the _Utah Jazz_. It’s hard to think of anything less apropos than associating something from New Orleans with Utah\*. > > I don’t follow sports at _all_. When I learned that Utah acquired the team from New Orleans it all made sense. Although changing the name to “The Saints” would’ve made more sense. (Therefore keeping an association with Jazz – “When the Saints go Marching In” – and making a link with Mormon Utah) > > \*I’ve remarked before on the culture shock I experienced in going from a snowy November in Utah via airplane to a balmy night in New Orleans. Teams that keep their nickname when they move can make for some “hunh?” moments. Los Angeles is not particularly known for its many lakes and rivers, but Minnesota, the original home of the Lakers, is. Before they became the Pelicans, New Orleans’ NBA team was the Hornets. Which are of no especial significance to New Orleans, but _are_ a symbol of Charlotte, North Carolina, the team’s first home. Due to the flatness of the city and the profusion of streetcar lines, residents of Brooklyn were once known as “Trolley Dodgers”, which nickname was applied to their baseball team. Who took the name when they moved to Los Angeles, despite it having no reference to the California city. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2414 "2016-02-28T21:40:02Z")
This really isn’t an _obvious_ thing, but this train left the “obvious” station many miles ago. I just had a flash of insight into a classic novel that I loved, and this thread seems the best place to post it. Over in the “What are your go-to books”, someone mentioned _Catch-22_, which prompted me to muse on the novel. “It’s a hell of a catch, Catch-22,” I quoted, and then thought, “The only way to beat it is to pull an Orr.” In reference to a character who deliberately crashes his plane into the ocean and rows to Sweden, to sit out the rest of the war. And then I realized the “pulling an oar” is _exactly_ how Orr beat the army, and the war, and the whole brutal dehumanizing system that Heller called Catch-22. Whoa. I was an English major and read _Catch-22_ a dozen times - how did I miss that? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2415 "2016-02-28T21:50:56Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Teams that keep their nickname when they move can make for some “hunh?” moments. …Due to the flatness of the city and the profusion of streetcar lines, residents of Brooklyn were once known as “Trolley Dodgers”, which nickname was applied to their baseball team. Who took the name when they moved to Los Angeles, **despite it having no reference to the California city**. A reference arose, however. Any child growing up in LA would be familiar with the aphorism that commented on the viciously aggressive driving often seen on the area’s freeways: “It takes courage to venture onto LA roads–you’ll be either a Dodger or an Angel!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2416 "2016-03-09T13:00:17Z")
All right, this one is completely and utterly embarrassing. So I read a lot of Harry Turtledove, a man who has made a living out of re-playing the years 1861-1945 over and over and over again: What if the South won the Civil War? What if Chamberlain said “no” in 1938? What if aliens invaded in 1942? What if WW2 took place in a world with magic? He’s not the greatest writer in the world, but I read his stuff like it’s crack in book form. Go figure. Anyway, I was reading a stand-alone book of his (he usually writes series, so a one-off is pretty rare for Mr. T.) called **Joe Steele** , about an authoritarian President who was elected in 1932 after the death of Roosevelt. Joe quashes civil liberties, arrests people for disagreeing with him, opens up forced labor camps in Montana, etc\*. Mr. Steele was from California, the son of a couple of Russian immigrants, typical American success story, and so on. So this book is going along and, in time, the rest of the world (Russia, Germany, England) all do their things pretty much the way they did in our timeline - Hitler, Chamberlain, uh… Trotsky? I kept on being confused about the number of times Trotsky was mentioned - wasn’t he icepicked in Mexico City in the early 1930s? Where the hell was Stalin? For over 150 pages, I couldn’t figure it out. Where was Stalin? Why did he just disappear in this book? Why, in God’s name, would Harry Turtledove just arbitrarily, for the purposes of this book, just remove the person of Josef… Stalin… … Oh, shit, am I stupid… :smack: To my credit, this wasn’t after the millionth time, but I should have glommed on by, what, page 8? To my shame, I knew that “Stalin” meant “steel” long before opening this novel. Oh well… \*One thing I noticed about Alternate Histories is that the alternate is always _worse_ than the current day. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2417 "2016-03-09T13:34:13Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > All right, this one is completely and utterly embarrassing. > > So I read a lot of Harry Turtledove, a man who has made a living out of re-playing the years 1861-1945 over and over and over again: What if the South won the Civil War? What if Chamberlain said “no” in 1938? What if aliens invaded in 1942? What if WW2 took place in a world with magic? > > He’s not the greatest writer in the world, but I read his stuff like it’s crack in book form. Go figure. > > Anyway, I was reading a stand-alone book of his (he usually writes series, so a one-off is pretty rare for Mr. T.) called **Joe Steele** , about an authoritarian President who was elected in 1932 after the death of Roosevelt. Joe quashes civil liberties, arrests people for disagreeing with him, opens up forced labor camps in Montana, etc\*. Mr. Steele was from California, the son of a couple of Russian immigrants, typical American success story, and so on. > > So this book is going along and, in time, the rest of the world (Russia, Germany, England) all do their things pretty much the way they did in our timeline - Hitler, Chamberlain, uh… Trotsky? I kept on being confused about the number of times Trotsky was mentioned - wasn’t he icepicked in Mexico City in the early 1930s? Where the hell was Stalin? > > For over 150 pages, I couldn’t figure it out. Where was Stalin? Why did he just disappear in this book? Why, in God’s name, would Harry Turtledove just arbitrarily, for the purposes of this book, just remove the person of Josef… Stalin… > > … Oh, shit, am I stupid… > > :smack: > > To my credit, this wasn’t after the millionth time, but I should have glommed on by, what, page 8? To my shame, I knew that “Stalin” meant “steel” long before opening this novel. > > Oh well… > > \*One thing I noticed about Alternate Histories is that the alternate is always _worse_ than the current day. Gives a whole new meaning to Man of Steel, doesn’t it? There’s an interesting concept – what if Joseph Stalin got that name because he was really the Last Son of Krypton, come to earth? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2418 "2016-03-09T14:04:30Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > \*One thing I noticed about Alternate Histories is that the alternate is always _worse_ than the current day. Except for Turtledove’s & Richard Dreyfuss’s THE TWO GEORGES in which the world of the North American British Colonies is fairly peaceful. I’d be interested in seeing how Turtledove’s AGENT OF BYZANTIUM concepts would play out when extended to the 21st Century, with Europe and the MidEast developing under a non-Schismatic Catholic Orthodox Church the Arabic wing of which is under the patronage of St. Mahomet of Mecca. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2419 "2016-03-09T14:23:10Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Except for Turtledove’s & Richard Dreyfuss’s THE TWO GEORGES in which the world of the North American British Colonies is fairly peaceful. I seem odd among Turtledove fans, in loathing the depicted “Two Georges Universe”. Fairly peaceful, maybe – but IMO, “at what a price”. Not, in my perception, like most of Turtledove’s works, where – something I like – he doesn’t demonise his “bad guys”, but shows them as also-human, however misguided. I disliked _The Two Georges’_ grotesquely / simplistically two-dimensional black / white picture: conservative Protestant Christian monarchists very good, everyone else very bad – including, the French / Spanish presence in the New World beyond the pale and detestable, because they’re Catholic. Reading _TTG_ had me wanting “the others” to win, and British North America to fall into ruin. I choose to think that these attributes of the book which I hate, are down to Dreyfuss – Turtledove does not normally do the simplistic saints-versus-fiends thing. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2420 "2016-03-09T18:52:22Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > This really isn’t an _obvious_ thing, but this train left the “obvious” station many miles ago. I just had a flash of insight into a classic novel that I loved, and this thread seems the best place to post it. > > Over in the “What are your go-to books”, someone mentioned _Catch-22_, which prompted me to muse on the novel. “It’s a hell of a catch, Catch-22,” I quoted, and then thought, “The only way to beat it is to pull an Orr.” In reference to a character who deliberately crashes his plane into the ocean and rows to Sweden, to sit out the rest of the war. > > And then I realized the “pulling an oar” is _exactly_ how Orr beat the army, and the war, and the whole brutal dehumanizing system that Heller called Catch-22. > > Whoa. > > I was an English major and read _Catch-22_ a dozen times - how did I miss that? I read an interview (Playboy?) in which Heller said Catch-22 contained two little inside jokes. From time to time people would mention one of them (Lt. Scheisskopf = Lt. Shithead), but no one had ever noticed the second one (or mentioned it to him, anyway). I wonder if you’ve identified the second joke? Heller even has Yossarian imagine Orr paddling past Gibraltar with “that little blue oar.” BTW, I’m the one who posted C22 in the “go-to” thread, and want to know how I too never noticed Orr pulling Orr’s oar. I salute you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=120) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=122)