# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 128
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2541 "2016-08-17T23:51:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, not exactly a contradiction, but a discovery. It isn’t an unreliable-narrator problem, because the people telling you the rule, didn’t actually know there was another answer. > > Also, it’s properly presaged, when the Sergeant tells his guys, “One of these days, you’re gonna laugh yourselves to death.” That gives the audience fair warning that, yes, there’s another way to kill a Toon. I never really noticed the contradiction, but I suppose I would chalk it up to the rules of being a Toon. You can walk off a cliff and not fall as long as you haven’t noticed. Roger can take his hand out of the handcuffs only when it’s funny to do so. When a weasel laughs too much it turns into a spectral form of itself holding a lily and floats up through the ceiling. They’re not really and truly dead, they’re just doing what Toon weasels do, and it was brilliant of Eddie to use their own logic against them. Dip is different; that shit ain’t no joke, take a bath in that and you’re gone. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_John_Marcej)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2016, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2542 "2016-08-18T00:54:27Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Just rewatched **The Sting**. > > I realized that plot would never have worked. Lonnegan would end up having them all killed. Maybe, or maybe not. Lonnegan was a huge crime pin, and one thing that keeps men like them on top, that keeps his underlings in line is the belief that he’s infallible. That combination of fear and belief that he can’t be taken or beat (even if he has to cheat to prove that fact). There’s even a line in the film where Lonnegan warns one of his men not to get the idea to even **think** about turning against him, like he thinks Hooker’s doing to Gondorff. The **LAST** think Lonnegan would want to get out, is the fact he was taken down in a con. Over the years he might still eventually go after people he thinks were involved, but he’d never make a big deal out of it. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2543 "2016-09-04T18:11:34Z")
> [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](#): > > Maybe, or maybe not. > > Lonnegan was a huge crime pin, and one thing that keeps men like them on top, that keeps his underlings in line is the belief that he’s infallible. That combination of fear and belief that he can’t be taken or beat (even if he has to cheat to prove that fact). There’s even a line in the film where Lonnegan warns one of his men not to get the idea to even **think** about turning against him, like he thinks Hooker’s doing to Gondorff. > > The **LAST** think Lonnegan would want to get out, is the fact he was taken down in a con. Over the years he might still eventually go after people he thinks were involved, but he’d never make a big deal out of it. Theres also a general sense, at least in those sorts of films, that there’s bootlegger kinda gangsters who are a “menace to society” and then there’s mass-murdering gotta be stop evildoers… Wiping out everyone and their brother wouldn’t have the same impunity as occasionally gambling. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Vicsage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e68b1a/32.png) [@Vicsage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vicsage)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2544 "2016-09-04T18:24:55Z")
Watched Star Trek: Search For Spock dozens of times, but recently noticed something. Why did Kirk want to go back to Genesis? He did not know until he got there that Spocks body was alive again. He just should have taken McCoy straight to Vulcan to have Spocks Katra or whatever removed from him. They never should have broken Starfleet laws and stole the Enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2545 "2016-09-04T18:45:51Z")
> [@Vicsage](#): > > Watched Star Trek: Search For Spock dozens of times, but recently noticed something. Why did Kirk want to go back to Genesis? He did not know until he got there that Spocks body was alive again. He just should have taken McCoy straight to Vulcan to have Spocks Katra or whatever removed from him. They never should have broken Starfleet laws and stole the Enterprise. He needed to take both Spock’s body and Katra to Vulcan: > [@](#): > > SAREK: One alive, one not. Yet both in pain. > KIRK: What must I do? > SAREK: You must bring them to Mount Seleya, …on Vulcan. Only there can both find peace. > KIRK: What you ask …is difficult. > SAREK: You will find a way, Kirk. …If you honour them both, you must. > KIRK: I will. I swear. He wasn’t expecting Spock to be alive, but he knew he needed the body. ---
**Author:** ![Vicsage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e68b1a/32.png) [@Vicsage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vicsage)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2546 "2016-09-04T19:59:16Z")
When Sarek said one alive, I take it he meant McCoy. The one dead, I took to mean Spock’s Katra. Both the Katra and McCoy were in pain. Dead body couldn’t be in pain. Plus Sarek seemed concerned about losing the Katra when he mind-melded with Kirk and didn’t mention the body. My impression is that it was the Katra that was important. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2547 "2016-09-05T00:04:08Z")
> [@Vicsage](#): > > When Sarek said one alive, I take it he meant McCoy. The one dead, I took to mean Spock’s Katra. Both the Katra and McCoy were in pain. Dead body couldn’t be in pain. Plus Sarek seemed concerned about losing the Katra when he mind-melded with Kirk and didn’t mention the body. My impression is that it was the Katra that was important. You can take it that way, I suppose, but Kirk certainly seems to be under the impression that Sarek wants Spock’s body, and I must say, that’s the way I understood it too. When Sarek first meets Kirk, under the impression that Kirk has Spock’s Katra, he says: > [@](#): > > SAREK: Why did you leave him on Genesis! Spock trusted you – and you denied him his future! Which means to me that Spock’s body is important to Sarek, and that he wants it. Later in the coversation he says: > [@](#): > > SAREK: He asked you to bring him to us – and to bring that which he gave you: his Katra. His living spirit. I can only interpret the “and” there as meaning Spock’s body _in addition_ to his Katra. Plus, he’s clearly very agitated (_very_ agitated for a Vulcan) about Kirk’s leaving Spock’s body behind. If the body was unimportant, surely he — believing Kirk had the Katra — would have said something like “Come with me, I have a ship ready to take us to Vulcan”. As I say, you’re entitled to interpret the dialogue differently, but since it makes the actions of both Sarek and Kirk inexplicable, I don’t quite see the benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2548 "2016-09-05T01:57:42Z")
I only just a few minutes realized that “The Katzenjammer Kids” is a play-on-words on “Cat’s Pajamas.” (Is that actually something they intended?) ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2549 "2016-09-05T02:19:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I only just a few minutes realized that “The Katzenjammer Kids” is a play-on-words on “Cat’s Pajamas.” > > (Is that actually something they intended?) Close. It was German for “yowling of cats”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2550 "2016-09-05T02:19:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I only just a few minutes realized that “The Katzenjammer Kids” is a play-on-words on “Cat’s Pajamas.” > > (Is that actually something they intended?) Probably not. The comic strip debuted in 1897. The phrase doesn’t appear until the 1920s. Katzenjammer, or cat’s wail, a sound of distress, is from about 1849. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2551 "2016-09-05T03:36:44Z")
Okay; I’m disappointed, but somewhat relieved. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2552 "2016-09-05T13:26:50Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Close. It was German for “yowling of cats”. I always figured it was a pun, Katz (Kids) in a jam. You’re probably right though. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2553 "2016-09-05T17:10:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Probably not. The comic strip debuted in 1897. The phrase doesn’t appear until the 1920s. > > Katzenjammer, or cat’s wail, a sound of distress, is from about 1849. I have read (but don’t have the reference , and don’t know how far back it goes) that “Katzenjammer” was slang for “hangover”, and that this influenced the choice of the title. (Wikipedia corroborates it, though, both under “katzenjammer” and “Katzenjammer kids”) A quick look on Google N-Gram shows that the term was used for both “hangover” and simply “a mess” since the 1880s. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2554 "2016-09-23T01:58:36Z")
From “Carrying the Banner”, the opening song for the Disney musical Newsies… "Uptown to Grand Central Station, down to City Hall… We improves our circulation, walking 'till we fall." That’s a double entendre on circulation. As in exercise of walking and as in selling the paper. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2555 "2016-09-23T14:06:05Z")
In Ursula LeGuin’s story “The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas”, I just realized that “Omelas” sounds like omelette. There’s an old saying that you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. In the story, Omelas is a perfect society which has a nasty secret. It can only exist by torturing an innocent child. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2556 "2016-09-24T02:56:37Z")
Although that’s probably just a coincidence – LeGuin says that “Omelas” is just “Salem, O” backwards – it’s a lovely coincidence, and LeGuin might very well have appreciated it and kept the use of the name because of it, where she might otherwise have thrown it out and come up with another name. Sometimes, these wonderful things aren’t intentional…but so wonderful, so perfect, you almost have to believe in universal synchrony! ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2016, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2557 "2016-09-24T05:18:22Z")
In _ **Star Trek: The Real Story** _, Bob Justman says he chose Belok’s scary alter ego as the background for Herb Solow’s name in the series’ closing credits. Okay… Watching “Balance of Terror” close on Friday, I noticed that Vina (as the hot green Orion slave girl in “The Menagerie”) was the background for _ **Desilu** _. I suspect this was in tribute to studio owner Lucille Ball. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2558 "2016-09-24T17:52:41Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Although that’s probably just a coincidence – LeGuin says that “Omelas” is just “Salem, O” backwards – it’s a lovely coincidence, and LeGuin might very well have appreciated it and kept the use of the name because of it, where she might otherwise have thrown it out and come up with another name. > > Sometimes, these wonderful things aren’t intentional…but so wonderful, so perfect, you almost have to believe in universal synchrony! There was some movie or episode of a TV show where the main character visits a town named Melas. It wasn’t until the end where you see the town’s name in the rear view mirror that I realized what the plot twist was. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2559 "2016-10-02T19:17:02Z")
I’m watching **Shrek the Third** for the fourth time or so, there’s nothing else on tv and I’m cleaning during the commercials, but I just realized that Merlin, voiced by Eric Idle, is **wearing socks with his sandals**. It made me laugh because of societies general attitude towards the thing and my roommate does it as well. And just to mess with him I’ll say something like, “Oh, you’re wearing socks with your sandals.” In a way one would say, “Oh, you got broccoli in you teeth.” And then he’ll say, “Fuck society.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2560 "2016-10-02T19:22:39Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I’m watching **Shrek the Third** for the fourth time or so, there’s nothing else on tv and I’m cleaning during the commercials, but I just realized that Merlin, voiced by Eric Idle, is **wearing socks with his sandals**. > > It made me laugh because of societies general attitude towards the thing and my roommate does it as well. And just to mess with him I’ll say something like, “Oh, you’re wearing socks with your sandals.” In a way one would say, “Oh, you got broccoli in you teeth.” And then he’ll say, “Fuck society.” Hardly society, just some wanna be hipsters and a few angry basement dwelling trolls. Low, no-show socks are quite normal when wearing sandals like Keens. And when out hiking, heavy wools socks are commonly worn with sandals on coolers days. Now yes, thin calf-high black or white socks are a bit of a fashion no-no, but you know what, your friend is right- _fuck them._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=127) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=129)