# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/261 "2009-08-03T18:48:04Z")
This is turning into an Abbot and Costello routine. Mary was the mother of Christ. Rosemary is the mother of the anti-Christ. It just sounds cool. Cooler than, say, Nancy’s Baby or Susan’s Baby or Peggy’s Baby. ---
**Author:** ![ajdebosco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@ajdebosco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajdebosco)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/262 "2009-08-03T18:55:20Z")
I never realized the great pizza argument between Kramer and Poppi was actually about abortion; that is too clever, (except for the writers, of course) I recall seeing a post-apocalyptic Springfield filled with smoldering craters, etc. when Homer said “Hmm, I smell bar-b-q…” and Lisa shrieks “No dad, don’t go down there…” Homer walks down the crevice stair anyway, and from the depths you hear “OH NOOOO! Soyburgers and german potato salad.” The Dante’s Divine Comedy thing excaped me completely until I saw it again. I couldn’t believe the Marx Brothers were actually kin until I had been watching them for years, I mean how could an Eye-talian, a mute, and that guy with the greasepaint be related to that stiff straight man? ---
**Author:** ![ajdebosco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@ajdebosco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajdebosco)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/263 "2009-08-03T19:00:33Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > This is turning into an Abbot and Costello routine. > > … Not everyone has an excellent command of the obvious, I know I don’t as frequently as I should.:smack: I remember arguing about the team in the famous “Slowly I turned…” bit, and it turns out we were all correct. Everyone from vaudevillians to Lucy and Ricky, the Three Stooges, Abbot & Costello, etc. even Bugs Bunny had fun with this one. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/264 "2009-08-03T20:15:14Z")
> [@ajdebosco](#): > > Not everyone has an excellent command of the obvious, I know I don’t as frequently as I should.:smack: No, it’s just that so many people have asked about it. Really, there’s nothing to get. Rosemary has “Mary” in it. Nothing else to see here. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/265 "2009-08-03T20:29:26Z")
> [@waynemcdougall](#): > > “You’ve forgotten the most important bit!” shrieks my wife. > > “Uh, what bit’s that?” I ask eloquently. > > “The bit about how swans mate for life, and that symbolism that explains why I gave it to you on the day we got married. Why do you think I made you hang it over our bed? You couldn’t think I was just giving you a photo of swans???” > > “Well no…not NOW darling…” > > She proceeds to explain how every day, in every way, I just show how much truly thicker I am than she had thought. ☹ Swans mating for life is a piece of trivia. If you sampled your average person on the street, I’m sure most people wouldn’t know it. I know I didn’t until this post. Also, I hope you’re being a little sarcastic about her reaction and what she said. :eek: OK, I thought of another one for myself. When the **Hall and Oates** song “One on One” came out 9 years old or so. For many years when I heard it I didn’t know it was a song about sex. I feel embarrassed about what I thought it meant, but at least I have the excuse that it went over my head because I was a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/266 "2009-08-03T20:51:06Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Oh, c’mon. “Making love in the green grass, \*behind \*the stadium with you…” You don’t have to be Fellini to get the symbolism. 😃 Sorry to drag the _Brown-Eyed Girl_ thing back in… but in addition to this line, I’m shocked nobody’s yet pointed out the lyrics “Down in the hollow / Playin’ a new game,” and “Going down the old mine…” Not that I’m entirely convinced Van intended to write a tribute to the back door, but it does make one stop and think. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/267 "2009-08-03T21:42:02Z")
The Cowardly Lion may seem gay now, but how many of those “clues” would’ve really been such back in the time period of the movie? IMO, he was just a wimpy buffoon type, sorta like how Joe Besser was in the later 3 Stooges shorts. (Or was Besser playing gay too?) ---
**Author:** ![EricJSmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9adbd/32.png) [@EricJSmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EricJSmith)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/268 "2009-08-03T22:24:38Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Isaac was Esau’s _dad_. Jacob was the twin brother. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Sefton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Sefton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sefton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/269 "2009-08-03T22:25:28Z")
Toward the end of the song _Only the Lonely_ by The Motels, the singer’s voice moans and quickly rises in pitch: “Only the looonely…Only the lonelyyyy!..can…play…” Since the song is about meaningless sex, she’s demonstrating (simulating?) an orgasm. And the low, slow ending signifies the pointlessness of it all. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/270 "2009-08-03T22:32:47Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > The Cowardly Lion may seem gay now, but how many of those “clues” would’ve really been such back in the time period of the movie? IMO, he was just a wimpy buffoon type, sorta like how Joe Besser was in the later 3 Stooges shorts. (Or was Besser playing gay too?) Well it’s not like gay stereotypes were made up in the few years before Stonewall. Read Vito Russo’s book [the Celluloid Closet](http://gaybookreviews.info/review/2543/543). It details the explicit connection (in popular movies at least) the connection between ‘gays’ and ‘sissies’ in the black & white era. It also specifically points out the Cowardly Lion as an example of a ‘sissy’ stand-in for a gay character. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/271 "2009-08-03T22:48:34Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > I haven’t seen that and I don’t know what her reasons for saying it like that were, but DIaGONally isn’t the way British people pronounce the word. Anyway, doesn’t it spoil the joke by burying the ‘a’ of ‘ally’? Perhaps Rowling has an idiosyncratic way of saying diagonally. I guess it’s easy enough to hear her say it like that and assume she’s representative of her accent (if she did say it like that, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/272 "2009-08-03T23:08:50Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > The Cowardly Lion may seem gay now, but how many of those “clues” would’ve really been such back in the time period of the movie? IMO, he was just a wimpy buffoon type, sorta like how Joe Besser was in the later 3 Stooges shorts. (Or was Besser playing gay too?) The emphasis is different. It’s not just the film either, the book dates from 40 or 50 years before when - now I think of it - Oscar Wilde would have been still a notorious case. (BTW the chief prosecutor against him was later the main reason for the partition of Ireland leading to the civil war and all the Troubles of later times - maybe a connection that Constance Wilde was well known in Fenian independence circles). It would be taken for granted that ‘unmanly’ in some ways was ‘unmanly’ (and undesirable) in all ways. ‘Dandy’ is another clue because it’s a man paying too much ‘effeminate’ attention to clothes, as Wilde’s ‘Aesthetes’ did (“Stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni: Yankeedoodle dandy”, Macaroni being an earlier version of the species who met in a London club where they served the stuff). They would have looked at it that if was unmanly he must be gay and if he was gay he must be unmanly. It’s something that concerns me because I feel that for a time that assumption was broken (after all some gays are übermacho SM types) but now gay activists have inadvertently helped to restore it, so if boys don’t act tough enough ‘everybody knows’ they’ll grow up gay and they get little chance to find out otherwise. In return, seeing it that way, I guess it’s where _Friend of Dorothy_ meaning _gay_ comes from as well. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/273 "2009-08-03T23:21:02Z")
> [@](#): > > In return, seeing it that way, I guess it’s where Friend of Dorothy meaning gay comes from as well. I thought that was just because Judy Garland was particularly sympathetic and helpful to the gay cause. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/274 "2009-08-03T23:27:24Z")
> [@Sefton](#): > > Toward the end of the song _Only the Lonely_ by The Motels, the singer’s voice moans and quickly rises in pitch: “Only the looonely…Only the lonelyyyy!..can…play…” > > Since the song is about meaningless sex, she’s demonstrating (simulating?) an orgasm. And the low, slow ending signifies the pointlessness of it all. Huh. Actually, I thought the vocal part at the end was a homage to Roy Orbison’s similarly-titled-but-different song, “Only the Lonely.” Still, we could be both right. ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/275 "2009-08-03T23:39:27Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Perhaps Rowling has an idiosyncratic way of saying diagonally. I guess it’s easy enough to hear her say it like that and assume she’s representative of her accent (if she did say it like that, of course). I haven’t heard her speak and positively refuse to read Herbert Potty. When I read fun magical children’s stories they are Eoin (pronounced Owen) Coulter’s _Artemis Fowle_ series and of course Philip Pullman. However, having looked her up, she grew up in a village int the west of England and they do speak slower and pronounce all their syllables round that way. Most people would not pronounce the O (and I would probably reduce the I to a Y or very short) but the western accent is more likely to put a short ‘null vowel’ in there, like in _agony_. In fact they often put null vowels in where there’s none at all: two consonants together _bain’t to thoirr a-loikin’_. It’s no accident that a lot of sailors and pirates came from the coast of that region where that accent is stronger and they speak so slow that in days when long-distance calls were expensive, I could count the cost of every syllable. Bristol was the major port there in the slave trade though Liverpool replaced it. Bristol (Brissl) has its own variant (noted for sticking L on the end of words - the city’s original name was Bristow) but it does have something in common with some of the older Southern American accents. A lot of the Jamestown settlers and later white slaves transported after the failed rebellion of 1685 came from slightly further south with that kind of accent - and unfortunately brought malaria with them. There’s a distinction too between an older pronunciation with ‘Dye’ and a later European-influenced one of ‘Dee’ (mine). ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/276 "2009-08-04T04:43:37Z")
> [@Jerseyman](#): > > I haven’t heard her speak and positively refuse to read Herbert Potty. When I read fun magical children’s stories they are Eoin (pronounced Owen) Coulter’s _Artemis Fowle_ series and of course Philip Pullman. However, having looked her up, she grew up in a village int the west of England and they do speak slower and pronounce all their syllables round that way. Most people would not pronounce the O (and I would probably reduce the I to a Y or very short) but the western accent is more likely to put a short ‘null vowel’ in there, like in _agony_. In fact they often put null vowels in where there’s none at all: two consonants together _bain’t to thoirr a-loikin’_. > > It’s no accident that a lot of sailors and pirates came from the coast of that region where that accent is stronger and they speak so slow that in days when long-distance calls were expensive, I could count the cost of every syllable. Bristol was the major port there in the slave trade though Liverpool replaced it. Bristol (Brissl) has its own variant (noted for sticking L on the end of words - the city’s original name was Bristow) but it does have something in common with some of the older Southern American accents. > > A lot of the Jamestown settlers and later white slaves transported after the failed rebellion of 1685 came from slightly further south with that kind of accent - and unfortunately brought malaria with them. > > There’s a distinction too between an older pronunciation with ‘Dye’ and a later European-influenced one of ‘Dee’ (mine). I just listened to [a different interview with Rowling](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOxJ3j_58EI), and she has a modern RP accent. RP accents do not pronounce diagonally as DI-a-GON-ally. She could still have an idiosyncratic pronunciation of some words, though. It happens. Eoin Colfer, btw, not Coulter. That’s an amusing mistake. (And it’s Fowl, not Fowle). An aside - in the above interview, a kid asks ‘what house would you put Gordon Brown and David Cameron in?’ and Rowling’s answer is very cleverly apolitical. ---
**Author:** ![santiago42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@santiago42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/santiago42)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/277 "2009-08-04T05:03:15Z")
I read Frank Cho’s Liberty Meadows comic strip for a number of years, and one of the characters is a dachsund named Oscar. Recently my nephew mentioned a friend’s new dachsund who they “obviously” named Oscar. I made the mistake of asking “Why Oscar?” and lost all my cool uncle street cred in a heartbeat. I also remember being a fan of the Village People to the point I had a poster of them on my wall for a number of years. In my defense, I was still in elementary school during the their heyday. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/278 "2009-08-04T05:13:25Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Two characters who exhibit an older brother-younger brother relationship, calling each other the exact terms used in Chinese to describe such a relationship, gives me an inkling that Beckett may have picked up a dictionary or asked a Chinese friend about those words at some point in writing the play. Nothing personal, but unless someone can find a cite, I’m just not going to buy this. Older brother/young brother doesn’t strike me as a good summary of Vladimir and Estragon’s relationship. Given that nobody in the audience would have understood this I find myself doubting that Beckett would have bothered. Why would he choose Mandarin, and how would he have done it? > [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > In the opening sequence to **Watchmen** , we see a bunch of stylized scenes establishing the heroes’ characters. Among them is a scene of a bomber with Sally Jupiter’s portrait on the side. It was our third time watching that scene before my wife realized that the bomber was returning from dropping the A-bomb on Japan. Maybe this isn’t obvious, but I noticed it the last time I read Watchmen and I thought it was a great detail. When Laurie and Dr. Manhattan return to Earth, they’re confronted with overwhelming carnage in the streets. Laying in the middle of it all is a page torn from a magazine. It’s an ad for the Veidt Method, and the text reads “I will give you bodies beyond your wildest imaginings.” ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/279 "2009-08-04T05:26:12Z")
> [@Sefton](#): > > Toward the end of the song _Only the Lonely_ by The Motels, the singer’s voice moans and quickly rises in pitch: “Only the looonely…Only the lonelyyyy!..can…play…” > > Since the song is about meaningless sex, she’s demonstrating (simulating?) an orgasm. And the low, slow ending signifies the pointlessness of it all. Huh. I don’t know. It doesn’t sound anything like a faked orgasm to me. And I don’t see how the slow ending makes it sound pointless. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/280 "2009-08-04T06:56:15Z")
Yay, bravo for you - > [@jefahrbach](#): > > I agree. It was just too obvious that all she did was look at Latin translations of words and at mythology to name characters, places, and spells. It often disappointed me how easily decipherable they were. > > I mean: Sirius (“Dog Star”) Black can turn into a black dog, Sibyll (the Sibyls were prophets of mythology) Trelawney is a divination teacher and sometimes prophet herself, Gregory Goyle (as in “gargoyle”) was also an ugly, monstrous protector, the Malfoys (Latin “maleficus” means “evil-doer”) are an all around bad family, Gilderoy Lockhart (“gilded” as in covered in thin gold foil) hides a rotten inside with a handsome exterior, and Remus (from Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome who were suckled by a wolf as children) Lupin (“Lupus” is Latin for “wolf”) is _shock_ a werewolf. (Which I agree, he was lucky to be named that since years later he gets bitten by a werewolf and becomes one himself. One could say he should have seen it coming.) > > The different houses don’t need much thought either: Gryffindor’s symbol is a lion but a “griffin” is a mythological creature half eagle and half lion, Ravenclaw’s eagle symbol is self explanatory with the bird references (“raven”, “claw”), Hufflepuff with its badger I always took to be the sound of that badger foraging (“huff” “puff” sound of breath in the dirt), and Slytherin only makes sense to be a “slithering” snake. > > But especially the spells are like a slap in the face to one’s intelligence. They all are merely the Latin translation of what the spell’s effect is: “Lumos” means “light” and causes a light to appear, “Nox” means “darkness” and extinguishes that light, “Crucio” means “to torture” and is a curse that causes extreme pain, “Imperio” means “to command” and is a curse which puts someone under another’s control, “Accio” means “to summon” and is a summoning charm, “Expelliarmus” means “to expel” (expello) “weapon” (arma), and so on and so forth. > > I liked the books, but there really wasn’t much mystery to all of this even the first time I read them. I hope that with this extensive response to the Harry Potter thread on this post, this one can be laid to rest, unlike the Audi, Rosemary’s Baby, and “Brown-Eyed Girl” threads.😉 If anyone is more interested, I recommend looking at “The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter” by David Colbert. Yeah its all patently obvious to you - but like how old are you with a tertiary education? The books are aimed at "tweens right? When I was around 10 or 12 it would have been cool to realise these sorts of links - and I’m guessing only the “better” vocabularies would make the link. And further - why not make the spells easy to decipher? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=15)