# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 141
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2801 "2017-11-17T01:28:45Z")
I thought of this thread over the past weekend while I was listening to some Billy Joel tunes. In New York State of Mind he sang… It comes down to reality and it’s fine with me 'cause I’ve let it slide I thought, _Excuse me? You’ve let reality slide? You’re going crazy?_ And then he confirmed… I don’t have any reasons I left them all behind. I’m in a New York state of mind. Wait, what? You’ve left reason behind? I thought, _Nah, this is just confirmation bias or something just because the randomizer put this song right after_ You May Be Right (I May be Crazy). But then the instrumental break ended and he repeated the lyrics again – exactly the same, of course. So what’s he saying? “Yeah, I’ve lost my senses; I actually like New York city.”? –G! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2802 "2017-11-17T01:38:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > "Look, furryman, you’re my brother. I know how you felt when dad died. I know how you struggled when your daughter, Cynthia, whosename we both know, got sick. But that doesn’t mean you can avoid this meeting with Mr Anderson, who we both know is dad’s lawyer. My wife Michelle agrees, and so does Carol, who is the person who is married to you. Also, you have a dog named Archibald. " This reminds me of one of the best /worst lines in Troll 2. Something like, “I know your grandpa’s death has been very hard, on you, Julia, and also me, his daughter.” That movie is a treasure trove of bad dialogue. I’m afraid I’m guilty of characters repeating names to each other in my own fiction. But you know what? I do that in real life all the time, it’s like an affectation in my own speech. That’s possibly unusual, but probably why I write it in fiction. I wonder if Heinlein talked that way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2803 "2017-11-17T02:40:45Z")
I just realized recently that [Dumbing of Age](http://www.dumbingofage.com/) has mouseover text. And I’m trying to decide if it’s worth going back and rereading all of them. I was also watching some _West Wing_ clips on YouTube and I belatedly realized that Margaret was gay. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2804 "2017-11-17T02:44:27Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I’m afraid I’m guilty of characters repeating names to each other in my own fiction. But you know what? I do that in real life all the time, it’s like an affectation in my own speech. That’s possibly unusual, but probably why I write it in fiction. I wonder if Heinlein talked that way. It’s an acceptable convenience in written fiction. In real life (or in a play, a movie, or a television episode) you can see the people as they’re talking and it’s clear who’s saying what and to whom. But in written prose, you just have the lines of dialogue. Sometimes the author has to add a written cue so the reader knows who’s speaking and who they’re speaking to. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2805 "2017-11-17T03:17:02Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I’m afraid I’m guilty of characters repeating names to each other in my own fiction. But you know what? I do that in real life all the time, it’s like an affectation in my own speech. That’s possibly unusual, but probably why I write it in fiction. I wonder if Heinlein talked that way. **Spice Weasel** , I don’t remember hearing people talk that way in real life, but I don’t know whether that’s because it’s very unusual or because it’s so usual I don’t notice it. ---
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2806 "2017-11-17T04:26:43Z")
I haven’t read every post in this thread, but I’m quite confident in saying that I am the thickest person here. In _You’re So Vain_, I was always confused about the refrain “you probably think this song is about you.” I always thought “of course it’s about him! What else could it be about? Are you trying to say the song’s really about you, Carly? Because it’s not. It’s clearly about him.” Then it finally hit me: she’s saying he’s so vain that, even though his name has not once been mentioned, he probably just assumes the song is about him anyway. Man I’m slow. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2807 "2017-11-17T06:25:25Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > I haven’t read every post in this thread, but I’m quite confident in saying that I am the thickest person here. > > In _You’re So Vain_, I was always confused about the refrain “you probably think this song is about you.” I always thought “of course it’s about him! What else could it be about? Are you trying to say the song’s really about you, Carly? Because it’s not. It’s clearly about him.” > > Then it finally hit me: she’s saying he’s so vain that, even though his name has not once been mentioned, he probably just assumes the song is about him anyway. > > Man I’m slow. I always thought she was singing “You had one eye in the mirror as you watched yourself **go past**.” It wasn’t until just a few years ago that I realized the line ends “you watched yourself **gavotte**.” Logical. It rhymes with “apricot.” ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2808 "2017-11-17T06:36:14Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > **Spice Weasel** , I don’t remember hearing people talk that way in real life, but I don’t know whether that’s because it’s very unusual or because it’s so usual I don’t notice it. I started an informal Facebook poll on it once and the consensus seems to be that I’m weird. I think it is more common in fiction for the reason described above, but I still have to weed half of them out. Honestly a lot of it for me is the dialog cadence, it could just as well be, “ya know” than a name because two syllables need to go in that place for it to sound right to my ear. I guess if Heinlein does it… ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2809 "2017-11-17T06:38:14Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > I haven’t read every post in this thread, but I’m quite confident in saying that I am the thickest person here. > > In _You’re So Vain_, I was always confused about the refrain “you probably think this song is about you.” I always thought “of course it’s about him! What else could it be about? Are you trying to say the song’s really about you, Carly? Because it’s not. It’s clearly about him.” > > Then it finally hit me: she’s saying he’s so vain that, even though his name has not once been mentioned, he probably just assumes the song is about him anyway. > > Man I’m slow. My husband sings that to me as “You’re so Strange.” I tell him it distorts the meaning of the chorus, but he remains unmoved. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2810 "2017-11-17T07:55:59Z")
That zoom-in shot of the boy who gets left Home Alone in the eponymous movie is (probably) supposed to be a parody of Munch’s The Scream. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2811 "2017-11-17T16:47:36Z")
This may have been mentioned earlier but I used to watch the '66 Batman show all the time growing up. Reruns of it ran perpetually in the afternoon on channel 32 and I always enjoyed it as face value: a televised and colorful interpretation of a crime fighting duo who always had just the right gadget to escape their predicament and would always outfight the villain of the week’s goons. The onomatopoeia was just added to the fight scenes to give them a little comic book oomph. Then one day I was watching it and Batman and Robin go to a run down factory to investigate a crime and then there they are outside of the run down factory that has a sign above the door that literally says “[Run down factory](https://twitter.com/batlabels/status/700418506160902144)” and I said “Wait a minute…” ---
**Author:** ![cardinal\_fang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal_fang/32/15316_2.png) [@cardinal\_fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cardinal_fang)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2812 "2017-11-17T17:18:36Z")
I’ve listened to Billy Joel’s [Piano Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxEPV4kolz0) about a million times, and always assumed that the manager (“And the manager gives me a smile.”) referred to his (the Piano Man’s) manager, who presumably booked the gig and showed up to watch. It hit me the other day that he’s referring to the venue/bar manager, who is making book with the “pretty good” crowd. Watching the video (for the first time) I see the manager depicted as a 70’s Vegas-Lizard type surrounded by boobs, smoking a cigar, and saluting Joel. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2813 "2017-11-17T17:37:21Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > I haven’t read every post in this thread, but I’m quite confident in saying that I am the thickest person here. > > In _You’re So Vain_, I was always confused about the refrain “you probably think this song is about you.” I always thought “of course it’s about him! What else could it be about? Are you trying to say the song’s really about you, Carly? Because it’s not. It’s clearly about him.” > > Then it finally hit me: she’s saying he’s so vain that, even though his name has not once been mentioned, he probably just assumes the song is about him anyway. > > Man I’m slow. I have thought about this one. My read is the song is not REALLY about him (the apparent focus). It’s about her (the singer.) MORE of the song seems to be about this self-centered guy, but her point is a) she had some dreams that involves a life with him but realizes their futility and b) “you gave away the things you loved, and one of them was me.” The song isn’t, in the end, about him. It’s about how she feels coming to grips with him shitting on her love for him. BUT he’s so obtuse he can’t figure out that’s what’s bothering her. It makes more sense if you boil it down to her saying “I’m a wreck because I realize you hardly even notice I’m here. And honestly you probably still are thinking what does this mean to me even now.” Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2814 "2017-11-17T17:53:08Z")
> [@cardinal\_fang](#): > > I’ve listened to Billy Joel’s [Piano Man](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxEPV4kolz0) about a million times, and always assumed that the manager (“And the manager gives me a smile.”) referred to his (the Piano Man’s) manager, who presumably booked the gig and showed up to watch. It hit me the other day that he’s referring to the venue/bar manager, who is making book with the “pretty good” crowd. Would the pianist in a [piano bar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_bar) even have a manager? ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2815 "2017-11-17T18:03:16Z")
Whilst sitting in traffic, contemplating my steering wheel, it occurred to me that the BMW logo looks kind of like stylized propellers. Google confirmed that the logo is, indeed, a stylized propeller because BMW started out as an aviations mechanics company :smack: duhhhhhhhh! ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse\_Chaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Eclipse\_Chaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse_Chaser)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2816 "2017-11-17T18:28:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I was also watching some _West Wing_ clips on YouTube and I belatedly realized that Margaret was gay. I never thought so. What evidence do you have? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2817 "2017-11-17T19:36:40Z")
> [@johnspartan](#): > > I have thought about this one. > > My read is the song is not REALLY about him (the apparent focus). It’s about her (the singer.) > > MORE of the song seems to be about this self-centered guy, but her point is a) she had some dreams that involves a life with him but realizes their futility and b) “you gave away the things you loved, and one of them was me.” > > The song isn’t, in the end, about him. It’s about how she feels coming to grips with him shitting on her love for him. > > BUT he’s so obtuse he can’t figure out that’s what’s bothering her. > > It makes more sense if you boil it down to her saying “I’m a wreck because I realize you hardly even notice I’m here. And honestly you probably still are thinking what does this mean to me even now.” I thought the official answer was, first she’s singing about one guy – the dude who wore an apricot-colored scarf and knew how to gavotte, a man who may or may not be Mick Jagger – and then she’s singing about another, who (a) talked a good game about them being a pretty pair, and who (b) we’ll just assume is Warren Beatty; and then she’s singing about some _third_ guy. Which means that, no matter who you are, most of the time she’s singing about someone else. ---
**Author:** ![cardinal\_fang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal_fang/32/15316_2.png) [@cardinal\_fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cardinal_fang)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2818 "2017-11-17T20:12:28Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Would the pianist in a [piano bar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_bar) even have a manager? Nope, I’ve come to realize. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2819 "2017-11-18T05:06:16Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I thought the official answer was, first she’s singing about one guy – the dude who wore an apricot-colored scarf and knew how to gavotte, \*\*a man who may or may not be Mick Jagger – \*\*and then she’s singing about another, who (a) talked a good game about them being a pretty pair, and who (b) we’ll just assume is Warren Beatty; and then she’s singing about some _third_ guy. Which means that, no matter who you are, most of the time she’s singing about someone else. It’s worth remembering that the background vocal in the song’s chorus happens to be Mick Jagger. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/2820 "2017-11-18T05:51:50Z")
> [@Eclipse\_Chaser](#): > > I never thought so. What evidence do you have? No other reasonable way to interpret [this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy97RcGoFes). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=140) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=142)