# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/281 "2009-08-04T09:06:03Z")
I don’t think the nicknames in _Waiting for Godot_ were just coincidental. I can’t imagine the playwright being so careless or casual in choosing. And we already know that “Godot” was a significant choice. > [@](#): > > **Lamia** : A Production Code Era film could not have a male character openly attracted to other males, especially not if this character was one of the heroes. True. Not openly. But take a second look at the relationship between the two men in _Gilda_. Nothing is spelled out. There is just a little erotic tension. It took many viewings and a question from a friend before I could see it. _Miracle on 34th Street_: > [@](#): > > **Cliffy** : Doris needing to prove to Fred that she wasn’t a wrinkled up prune Maureen O’Hara, the actress who played the role in the 1942 version, is still alive and kicking and quite a plum! > [@](#): > > **Sauron** : I always wondered why Macy’s would be selling x-ray machines. I don’t know if this is still true, but merchants at that time could purchase just about anything wholesale – even if you were not in a business that usually sold that product. The judge in the 1942 version was Gene Lockhart, the father of actress June Lockhart. He wrote a song that was popular during the Depression called “The World Is Waiting for the Sunrise.” It was rerecorded and repopularized by Les Paul and Mary Ford in about the early 1950s. > [@](#): > > **Hippy Hollow** : I was listening to a BBC documentary about the history of recorded music, where the commentator remarked that most songs are in the 3-4 minute range because that’s as much that would fit on a 45… This sounds reasonable, but as best I remember, the popular songs that were recorded on 78s were also about that long. And I do remember that by the mid-1950s, there were 45s that had two songs on one side and two on the flip side. The were considered as sort of short “albums.” **rowrrbazzle** , loved the information about the music in _West Side Story_. The older I get, the more I appreciate that particular musical. I was told that some famous building – the Kennedy Center or the Met – is located where they shot the final fight scene. What is a _shofar_? (And don’t tell me it’s a man who drives rich Southern women to the spa. I know better.) Finally, the man who played the Tin Man. Jack Haley, was it? I read not too long ago that when he was growing up it was just a very short distance from the factory that makes all those little heart-shaped Valentine candies with things written on them. \* “If I only had a heart…”\* ---
**Author:** ![hammos1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@hammos1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammos1)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/282 "2009-08-04T12:06:19Z")
It’s been a while since I’ve seen any of the Harry Potter films, but don’t the characters say ‘Diagon Alley’ as if it really were a street name- i.e. not with the same emphasis as the word ‘diagonally’? If so, then the simplest explanation is that when Rowling said ‘DI-a-GON ALL-ey’ in the interview, she was referring to the street. (I’m aware this largely depends on how you choose to pronounce the nonsense word ‘Diagon’- but pronouncing it this way at least matches with similar-looking words like ‘hexagon’) There’s no doubt in my mind that the ‘A’ in Audi’s line up of cars is there because it’s the first letter of the manufacturer. I don’t think it’s anything to do with aluminium. Those who believe it is are invited to explain why Citroen’s range of cars comprises the C1, C2, C3, C4 etc., what Ferrari were thinking of when they released the F355, the F460, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/283 "2009-08-04T15:39:40Z")
I’d heard the Beatle’s song “Girl” thousands of times before I realized that in the background they are singing “tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit” over and over… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/284 "2009-08-04T15:47:56Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > OK, I thought of another one for myself. When the **Hall and Oates** song “One on One” came out 9 years old or so. For many years when I heard it I didn’t know it was a song about sex. It’s not about a backyard basketball match between two friends?? > [@Astroboy14](#): > > I’d heard the Beatle’s song “Girl” thousands of times before I realized that in the background they are singing “tit tit tit tit tit tit tit tit” over and over… :smack: Do they really sing “Baby you’re a rich fag Jew” to Brian Epstein in “Baby You’re a Rich Man”? ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/285 "2009-08-04T15:50:19Z")
Unbelievably late in life, I realized that “Twinkle, twinkle…” and “ABC…” had the same melody. I think a comedian brought this to light for me. I had just never really thought about it. Dumb ass! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/286 "2009-08-04T15:50:44Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I don’t think the nicknames in _Waiting for Godot_ were just coincidental. I can’t imagine the playwright being so careless or casual in choosing. There’s quite a bit of room between “careless” and “deliberately chose names that could be shortened into arguably meaningful words in a language neither the playwright nor his audience spoke.” > [@](#): > > And we already know that “Godot” was a significant choice. Beckett seemed to offer different explanations for that all the time. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/287 "2009-08-04T15:55:22Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > Unbelievably late in life, I realized that “Twinkle, twinkle…” and “ABC…” had the same melody. I think a comedian brought this to light for me. I had just never really thought about it. Dumb ass! “Baa Baa Black Sheep”, too. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/288 "2009-08-04T16:08:24Z")
> [@Jerseyman](#): > > It would be taken for granted that ‘unmanly’ in some ways was ‘unmanly’ (and undesirable) in all ways. ‘Dandy’ is another clue because it’s a man paying too much ‘effeminate’ attention to clothes, as Wilde’s ‘Aesthetes’ did (“Stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni: Yankeedoodle dandy”, Macaroni being an earlier version of the species who met in a London club where they served the stuff). Um, no. I’m with you on the Cowardly Lion (inasmuch as it matters that he’s gay at all), but you are wrong re Macaronis. (And you’re wrong re Dandies as well, but I’ll let that one go–the article explains both). 🙂 [CallitMacaroni](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macaroni_(fashion)) Which explains why Yankee Doodle Dandy sticks a feather in his cap and calls it macaroni… ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/289 "2009-08-04T16:09:07Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > Unbelievably late in life, I realized that “Twinkle, twinkle…” and “ABC…” had the same melody. I think a comedian brought this to light for me. I had just never really thought about it. Dumb ass! :smack: “The Alphabet Song” is what I’ve always called it. I’m sitting here trying to make the Jackson 5 song “ABC” have the same melody as “Twinkle, Twinkle.” :smack: again ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/290 "2009-08-04T16:11:29Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > :smack: > > “The Alphabet Song” is what I’ve always called it. > > I’m sitting here trying to make the Jackson 5 song “ABC” have the same melody as “Twinkle, Twinkle.” > > :smack: again Pssst… I did the same thing. I know it as the alphabet song too. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/291 "2009-08-04T16:18:04Z")
I speak in an English “RP” accent and I pronounce “diagonally”: dye-AG-ən-əl-ee “Diagon Alley” would be pronounced dye-AG-ən AL-ee But it’s close enough for the pun to be recognised. I got it after a few pages. That said, for those of you who are criticising the unsophisticated names and spell words in HP, can I just remind you that even though adults read them, these are and always have been kids’ books - and that the level of sophistication in these words seems about perfect to excite curiosity, research, and discovery in the 8-14 agegroup. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/292 "2009-08-04T16:30:07Z")
After discovering and enjoying just about any Lou Reed or David Bowie song, sooner or later I figure out it’s about heroin. And of course there was [this 80s song](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8j2ej5jqQw), which seemed to be about a horse of an albino complexion. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/293 "2009-08-04T16:30:17Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > It bothers me that the Pleiades are commonly called “The Seven Sisters” (in the western hemisphere, anyway) but my Subaru’s logo has only six stars. > > . Different people see different numbers of stars there. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/294 "2009-08-04T16:41:24Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Do they really sing “Baby you’re a rich fag Jew” to Brian Epstein in “Baby You’re a Rich Man”? No idea… I’ve never heard that! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/295 "2009-08-04T16:48:52Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Do they really sing “Baby you’re a rich fag Jew” to Brian Epstein in “Baby You’re a Rich Man”? No. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/296 "2009-08-04T17:10:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. There are several different stories told about this: In [some](http://oldies.about.com/od/thebeatlessongs/a/babyrichman.htm), the line made the recording. > [@](#): > > •Bob Spitz’s biography The Beatles cites several sources claiming that, at the end of this song, John Lennon sings “Baby, you’re a rich fag Jew,” a reference to band manager Brian Epstein, who was Jewish and a closeted homosexual. (That he was rich should be obvious.) Although the evidence for this slur is all anecdotal, John can be heard bearing down hard on the title phrase during the fade-out, exactly as he would do if engaging in such an insult. Other accounts have him singing the line on a demo or during a session when Epstein was visiting. Mostly because that’s the kind of guy John was. In these accounts it’s not in the final song and was never released. A simple no doesn’t work for this. There’s testimony that he said it at some point and it’s exactly the sort of thing Lennon would do as a private jab. I can’t believe he would let it reach public years, not as early as 1967 when their images were still important and I don’t hear it in the final lines even listening carefully. In private - sure. ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/297 "2009-08-04T17:11:15Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No. Especially because the Beatles are from the UK, where ‘fag’ is not slang for ‘gay man’. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/298 "2009-08-04T17:14:51Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > It’s not about a backyard basketball match between two friends?? Of course not, don’t be silly. They’re both playing catch with a baseball…and possibly wearing catchers mitts. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/299 "2009-08-04T17:18:03Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Mostly because that’s the kind of guy John was. I agree with that and with your view on John’s sense of humor, but the question was whether or not the words “rich fag Jew” appear on the recording everybody knows. Like you, I find the idea inconceivable and unsupported by listening. Could he have sang it in a demo? Maybe. But **gigi** was asking if that’s what they sing on the album version. ---
**Author:** ![ajdebosco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@ajdebosco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ajdebosco)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/300 "2009-08-04T17:26:55Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Do they really sing “Baby you’re a rich fag Jew” to Brian Epstein in “Baby You’re a Rich Man”? Funny you should ask; I was fortunate to receive bona fide college credits for a course devoted to Sgt. Pepper’s, Magical Mystery Tour, and the White Album. The Prof fancied himself **The** expert on lyrics, meanings, and debunking misconceptions about the Beatles, and this topic came up. He claimed that John Lennon had indeed shouted those words during an early take that never made it onto vinyl or tape, but the story persists to this day. It is certainly not as clear in the last chorus just what they are saying, but even the digitally remastered sounds seem to be “…rich man, too!” I had to listen to this tune again, and don’t hear the slur, but I did recall that Brian Jones played the synth intro, and Mick Jagger can clearly be heard wailing his distinctive vocals as a backup. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=16)