# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 156
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3102 "2018-09-11T06:38:16Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > It’s also clear the singer is talking about seeing him/her in his/her _imagination_, and not in person. There’s also a brief intro that’s missing from most recordings: _Cathedral bells were tolling and our hearts sang on Was it the spell of Paris or the April dawn? **Who knows if we shall meet again?** But when the morning chimes ring sweet again … I’ll be seeing you in all the old familiar places…_ So it may be _possible_, but the singer isn’t counting on it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3103 "2018-09-11T16:43:01Z")
The breakup of the Rockers is one of the best known in wrestling history. I never realized until recently how obvious it was the Marty was holding a gig the whole time. He really does not even try to hide it. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3104 "2018-09-12T17:26:53Z")
I only recently realised that the ‘Mad’ in Mad Max means both crazy _and_ angry… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3105 "2018-09-18T13:06:00Z")
I don’t know if learning there is both a Captain America _and_ a Captain Marvel fits this thread, but I am putting it here. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3106 "2018-09-18T14:45:54Z")
^Well did you know that both DC and Marvel had a Captain Marvel? ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3107 "2018-09-18T14:58:45Z")
M. F. Enterprises had a Captain Marvel too: > **[Captain Marvel (M. F. Enterprises)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel_(M._F._Enterprises))** > > Captain Marvel was a superhero published by Myron Fass' short-lived M. F. Enterprises. The character is unrelated to those published by Fawcett Comics, DC Comics, or Marvel Comics and only appeared in a few comics in the late 1960s before legal challenges shut down the publisher. > Captain Marvel lasted for four issues (cover-dated April–Nov. 1966). It was followed by two issues of Captain Marvel Presents the Terrible Five, numbered #1 and #5 (Sept. 1966 and Sept. 1967). > Captain Marvel was a jet-... ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3108 "2018-09-18T14:59:51Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > ^Well did you know that both DC and Marvel had a Captain Marvel? … no? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3109 "2018-09-18T15:26:27Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > ^Well did you know that both DC and Marvel had a Captain Marvel? It’s interesting how after both characters have been around for decades, they’re each getting their big screen moment in the same month. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3110 "2018-09-18T16:07:11Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > … no? It’s complicated. DC Comics created Superman in 1938 and he was a big success. So a lot of other comic book companies created similar characters. One of these companies was Fawcett, which created the character of Captain Marvel in 1939. There were differences in the characters’ non-hero identities. Superman was an alien who came to Earth as a baby when his own planet was destroyed. He grew up in Kansas under the identity of Clark Kent. Captain Marvel was a young boy named Billy Batson, who was told a magic spell (he says the word “Shazam”) that could transform him into an adult superhero. But as superheros, the two characters had very similar powers and carried out very similar stories. Captain Marvel was also a major commercial success but DC filed lawsuits against Fawcett over character infringement. Sales declined and Fawcett retired the character in 1953. DC Comics licensed the rights to Captain Marvel from Fawcett in 1972 and bought them outright in 1993. So Captain Marvel now appears as a DC character alongside Superman. And this was the simple part of the story. Marvel comics led a revival of comic book in the early sixties, introducing a whole line of new characters (such as the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Thor, Iron Man, Spiderman, etc). They created a character named Captain Marvel in 1967. Note that this was during the period between 1953, when Fawcett stopped using the character, and 1972, when DC acquired the rights. So nobody much cared if a different character named Captain Marvel existed. After DC revived the original character, there were issues over the use of the name by Marvel’s character. It was decided that Marvel could keep the name as long as they didn’t let it fall into disuse. DC was also allowed to use the name in relation to the original character. But Marvel had the rights to use Captain Marvel as the title of a comic book series so DC began publishing stories about their Captain Marvel under the title _Shazam!_. This led to some confusion as people thought the character was named Shazam. So Marvel makes sure to publish new comic books with a character named Captain Marvel at least once every two years so they retain their rights. But they haven’t consistently used it for a single character. The original Marvel Captain Marvel was an alien named Mar-Vell, who came to Earth with super powers. This character died a dramatic death due to cancer in 1982 (it was considered a major moment in comic book history to have a superhero character die from natural causes and stay dead.) But Marvel had to make sure the name stayed alive even after the character died, so they introduced a new character named Monica Rambeau, a police officer who acquired super-powers and joined the Avengers. She used the name Captain Marvel for several years. There were also several other characters who were successors to the now-dead Mar-Vell who also used the name Captain Marvel after Rambeau stopped using it. None of them were very significant but they served to keep the name in use. Meanwhile, there was another Marvel character named Carol Danvers, who was introduced in 1968. She acquired super-powers from the original Mar-Vell and adopted the name Ms Marvel. As Ms Marvel, she was a fairly significant character for many years. In 2012, she decided to change her name to Captain Marvel in honor of Mar-Vell. (Another younger woman named Kamala Khan adopted the name of Ms Marvel and made comic book history by being the first major openly Muslim character in comic books.) Danvers is the current Captain Marvel in the Marvel universe and she is the protagonist of the upcoming MCU movie. With Marvel’s character having eclipsed the original one and not being able to use the name as the title of a series, DC finally decided to throw in the towel and renamed their Captain Marvel as Shazam in 2011. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3111 "2018-09-18T21:28:25Z")
Very well done, **Little Nemo**! …now do the Summers clan. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3112 "2018-09-19T02:19:43Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Very well done, **Little Nemo**! People ask me how I’ve been keeping busy since I retired. I show them my posting history. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3113 "2018-09-19T18:40:03Z")
Just to add to Little Nemo’s excellent summary: The powers of Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan are not the same as the other people called Captain Marvel or Ms. Marvel. The former can transform into any form of light, and the latter has Plastic Man type powers, although she can also transform her body so that she looks like other people. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3114 "2018-09-20T16:33:46Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > Just to add to Little Nemo’s excellent summary: The powers of Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan are not the same as the other people called Captain Marvel or Ms. Marvel. The former can transform into any form of light, and the latter has Plastic Man type powers, although she can also transform her body so that she looks like other people. Re: Kamala Khan: Actually I believe they dropped the “imitation” superpower pretty early on. I can’t remember the canon reason. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3115 "2018-09-20T18:05:34Z")
In _Dragonquest_ by Anne McCaffrey, the first time we see the villain, Kylara, she’s wearing a new, fancy red dress, and complaining that it’s not finished. She says she needs to wear it at a family wedding. I’ve read this book dozens of times, but only just noticed that the bride is wearing a traditional wedding gown–a fancy red dress. Kylara, entirely in keeping with her character, plans to show her up, probably because she hadn’t been invited. The author makes it clear that nobody else wears red. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3116 "2018-09-20T18:15:50Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > In _Dragonquest_ by Anne McCaffrey, the first time we see the villain, Kylara, she’s wearing a new, fancy red dress, and complaining that it’s not finished. She says she needs to wear it at a family wedding. > > I’ve read this book dozens of times, but only just noticed that the bride is wearing a traditional wedding gown–a fancy red dress. Kylara, entirely in keeping with her character, plans to show her up, probably because she hadn’t been invited. The author makes it clear that nobody else wears red. I loved those books when I was young, especially ‘Dragonquest’, which was the first I read (although second in the series). I didn’t notice the dress thing especially, but I do recall that Kylara had a great need to always be the center of attention. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3117 "2018-09-25T14:14:41Z")
In the Simpsons episode “Mother Simpson” Grampa is watching football on TV and complains about Joe Namath’s hair saying “Lookit them sideburns, he looks like a girl. Now Johnny Unitas, there’s a haircut you can set a watch to.” It’s a funny line and no doubt I got it when I first heard it but watching that clip again and it really struck me how amusing the line is. Joe Namath looks like a girl with his long sideburns… which girls aren’t typically known to have… ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3118 "2018-09-25T16:50:16Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > In the Simpsons episode “Mother Simpson” Grampa is watching football on TV and complains about Joe Namath’s hair saying “Lookit them sideburns, he looks like a girl. Now Johnny Unitas, there’s a haircut you can set a watch to.” It’s a funny line and no doubt I got it when I first heard it but watching that clip again and it really struck me how amusing the line is. Joe Namath looks like a girl with his long sideburns… which girls aren’t typically known to have… Compare to the bit with Mr. Burns going nuts over Don Mattingly’s sideburns in season 3. It might be a thing with older people like Burns, Grandpa Simpson and … the manager of the Marlins in [2016](https://www.smh.com.au/sport/miami-marlins-coach-don-mattinglys-new-facial-hair-policy-echoes-episode-of-the-simpsons-20160222-gn0pdd.html) who instituted a no facial hair policy (which includes sideburns). I wonder how the young [Don Mattingly](http://legendsrevealed.com/entertainment/2017/02/02/was-the-don-mattingly-sideburns-plot-on-the-simpsons-not-a-real-life-reference/) would have felt about it if he was a Marlin then. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3119 "2018-09-28T02:43:39Z")
In the motion picture "1984" The rabble-rouser whipping the crowd into a frenzy starts out describing themselves as the people of Oceania…yet later on, describes Oceania as the _enemy._ The novel recalls how the Ministry of Truth is constantly revising history, with volatile, shifting alliances alternately between Eurasia and Eastasia going unnoticed to the general populace used to speaking and hearing Newspeak, created to prevent you from thinking/remembering logically or critically. I listened to the oration of the rabble-rouser several times over the decades when I caught the movie on TV and never noticed… …_which is the very purpose of The Ministry of Truth._ ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3120 "2018-09-28T11:13:26Z")
> [@Enola\_Straight](#): > > In the motion picture “1984” > > The rabble-rouser whipping the crowd into a frenzy starts out describing themselves as the people of Oceania…yet later on, describes Oceania as the _enemy._ I don’t see that. He says “Death to the enemies \*\*of \*\*Oceana” not “the enemy, Oceana”. Unless you’re referring to a different line. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3121 "2018-09-28T14:58:45Z")
Hmmm…that could be accurate, but in the novel, the alliance switch is made _mid-sentence_, and of course, _no-one_ goes, “Hey, wait a minute…”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=155) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=157)