# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/301 "2009-08-04T17:37:35Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **rowrrbazzle** , loved the information about the music in _West Side Story_. The older I get, the more I appreciate that particular musical. I was told that some famous building – the Kennedy Center or the Met – is located where they shot the final fight scene. What is a _shofar_? (And don’t tell me it’s a man who drives rich Southern women to the spa. I know better.) A shofar is a horn made from the horn of a ram that is blown at certain times of day and for religious rituals in the jewish faith. [Short clip explaining shofars](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6iNXRVN-WE) ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/302 "2009-08-04T17:52:19Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I speak in an English “RP” accent and I pronounce “diagonally”: > > dye-AG-ən-əl-ee > > “Diagon Alley” would be pronounced > > dye-AG-ən AL-ee Midwesterner checking in here. (although I don’t speak nasally or use Chicago slang). Diagonally: same as you RPers: dye/AG/en/al/lee (don’t know how to do a schwa e) Diagon Alley: DYE/a/gon . AL/lee. I think I see where our mix up is. No matter, I get the pun now. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/303 "2009-08-04T18:43:43Z")
In George R. R. Martin’s Songs of Ice and Fire series, it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that Renly and Loras Tyrell were gay lovers. ---
**Author:** ![Staver808](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Staver808](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staver808)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/304 "2009-08-04T18:50:30Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > One theory is that Dylan intentionally set the verses out of order, and the last verse is actually the first. Thus the story begins with the title phrase, and the two riders are seen before they are identified by name. Seconding Nobody, but I’ve never heard this either. And if it is backwards and they’re on the horses in the ending, who is having the conversation at the beginning? And if it is the Joker and the Thief, what does it mean? > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > **Young Frankenstein** : In Inspector Kemp’s first scene at the town meeting, he breathes on his monocle, polishes it on his jacket, and then puts it on the eye that has an eyepatch on it. > > And I think there a later scene where the torch-bearing mob is out looking for the monster and he puts a finger to his mouth to shoosh them that it’s his left arm that’s wooden. (All the other times it’s his right.) I’ll have to see it again to confirm that. The eyepatch probably changes sides, too. Yeah, his arm changes visibly throughout the scenes as well as the eye patch. IIRC there’s even a scene where Gene Wilder is looking at the Inspector’s arm and seems to be on the verge of asking him about it when he lets it go. There are several Mel Brooke’s movies like this (generally all of them) where if you watch them long enough you’ll catch some small little thing that you missed before. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/305 "2009-08-04T19:14:36Z")
> [@Staver808](#): > > And if it is backwards and they’re on the horses in the ending, who is having the conversation at the beginning? And if it is the Joker and the Thief, what does it mean? It would be the Joker and the Thief speaking at the beginning, and the topic would be the same - how to get out of wherever they are. (I guess they would be talking about escaping the area, since they are outside and the wind is howling, rather than perhaps escaping the watchtower.) I hadn’t heard this before, but it’s interesting. Wikipedia cites a 1968 interview where Dylan says the events of the song take place in “a rather reverse order,” which might not be an acknowledgement that he put the first verse last, but indicates the song can be read that way. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/306 "2009-08-04T19:25:36Z")
Another thread reminded me of one I only figured out recently. _Battlefield Earth_: a really bad movie based on a book by L. Ron Hubbard. John Travolta: an early celebrity Scientologist. “Star” of _Battlefield Earth_. Light bulb goes off- there’s a connection! ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/307 "2009-08-04T19:56:15Z")
I am not so sure that Grimauld Place is named for “Grim Old Place”. A grimalkin is a cantankerous old woman–fits Sirius’ mum to a T. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/308 "2009-08-04T20:07:20Z")
One more **Wizard of Oz** that I realized at the age of 44 years, 4 months, 22 days… When the eponymous Wizard leaves Oz, he names the scarecrow as his successor. _The scarecrow is a_\* straw man\*\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/309 "2009-08-04T20:33:40Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I am not so sure that Grimauld Place is named for “Grim Old Place”. A grimalkin is a cantankerous old woman–fits Sirius’ mum to a T. You and I obviously pronounce _Grimauld Place_ very, very differently. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/310 "2009-08-04T20:41:57Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > You and I obviously pronounce _Grimauld Place_ very, very differently. 🙂 Heh. 🙂 I didn’t mean that Grimalkin would be pronounced the same as Grimauld–I was thinking that grimalkin acted as the inspiration for Grimauld Place. It probably would have helped if I had included that in my post. :rolleyes: And I wonder why sometimes I’m misunderstood. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/311 "2009-08-04T20:45:35Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Isaac was Esau’s _dad_. Jacob was the twin brother. > > Are you saying that “pulling one’s leg” comes from the Bible story? MY G\_D! I Just Got SOMETHING! Jacob is grabbing Esau’s heel/foot/leg as they’re being born. When Jacob is renamed (reborn as) Israel in the rasslin’ match with The Angel, his leg/thigh is knocked out of place by The Wrestler! I have read that LOTS OF TIMES and either forgot it or never got it at all! Now to Rosemary’s Baby- Yes, the Rose is a Medieval symbol for Christ- the olde Christmas song “Lo, how a Rose ere Bloometh…” is a case in point. Also, Mary is called “Lady of the Rose/Roses” as was noted before. I don’t know why people still aren’t getting it. And as for mine, Strawberry Alarm Clock’s song “Incense and Peppermints”- I loved that song for almost 20 years. Around 1992, I was visiting a pot-head friend who burned a lot of incense and mentioned having to eat a peppermint when her Mom visited. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh!:smack: Also, on SNL soon after Charles and Diana’s wedding, Andy Warhol told a joke: Where did Prince Charles spend his honeymoon? Indiana. I thought it was just a stupid non sequiter… for years. One day when Charles & Diana were in the news- Ohhhhhhhh!:smack: ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/312 "2009-08-04T20:53:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I thought that was just because Judy Garland was particularly sympathetic and helpful to the gay cause. How? By birthing Liza Minelli? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/313 "2009-08-04T21:19:28Z")
> [@Labdad](#): > > I listened to, played, and sang “All Along the Watchtower” a bazillion times before I realized the two approaching riders were, in fact, the Joker and the Thief. I thought they were inside the compound with the watchtower where princes kept the view, and it was that place thatthey had to get out of! I googled the lyrics and re-read them (has anyone else noticed how often lyrics Web sites are wrong?). I don’t get it. It doesn’t make sense with the riders being the Joker and the Thief. What makes you think they are? What does the song _mean_ if they are? The lyrics make little enough sense as it is… > [@Nobody](#): > > Thank you for answering my question from three pages ago. > [@FourDeer](#): > > Panache45: Someone DID mention the FedEx arrow. Roadfood, post # 78, page 2, about halfway down. Just for the record, referring to “pages” on this site is completely meaningless. Post #175 might be on page 4 for you, but it’s on page 1 for me, and it may be on page 2 for someone else. There are settings in the User Control Panel that let you determine how many posts you see per page. ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyDavid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@MonkeyDavid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyDavid)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/314 "2009-08-04T21:20:53Z")
I thought “Friends of Dorothy” came from Dorothy Parker of Algonquin Round Table fame…yep, that’s what Wikipedia says too, although I seems to remember a more authoritative source. The phrase goes way back… ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/315 "2009-08-05T00:10:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, no, but there’s not an animal called a “roo”, or a “kanga”. > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > True. (Gopher is a Disney creation, by the way.) And you’re right, all the animals except Rabbit and Owl are toys, and named after ‘real’ toys. So Piglet is a real piglet? ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/316 "2009-08-05T00:15:58Z")
> [@bup](#): > > One more **Wizard of Oz** that I realized at the age of 44 years, 4 months, 22 days… > > When the eponymous Wizard leaves Oz, he names the scarecrow as his successor. _The scarecrow is a_\* straw man\*\*\*. :smack: I’ve seen the movie hundreds of times and never got that till just now. Guess I have you beat at 44 years, 9 months and 21 days. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/317 "2009-08-05T00:16:22Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I am not so sure that Grimauld Place is named for “Grim Old Place”. A grimalkin is a cantankerous old woman–fits Sirius’ mum to a T. Isn’t a grimalkin a grey cat? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/318 "2009-08-05T01:07:57Z")
It’s both! [grimalkin](http://www.answers.com/topic/grimalkin) ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/319 "2009-08-05T01:33:20Z")
I see. Would you believe there are no cats named Grimalkin on Petfinder? I mean, a whole database full of animal shelters, and not one think to name a kitteh Grimalkin. Or Schrodinger, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ferd\_Burfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@Ferd\_Burfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferd_Burfel)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/320 "2009-08-05T02:04:51Z")
I’ve listened to **Helplessly Hoping** by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young for years, but it wasn’t until earlier this year that I heard this. > [@CSNY](#): > > They are one person > They are two alone > They are three together > They are for each other As each line is sung, another voice is added. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=17)