# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 163
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3242 "2019-03-11T18:23:08Z")
I’ve not seen _The Help_ _dozens_ of times ,but certainly a half dozen, and it wasn’t until the most recent that I realized when Celia is burying her miscarried fetus under a patch of flowers in her yard that there are two other patches of flowers behind her indicating she’d buried 2 previous miscarriages before that. At least I think that what we’re meant to get from it (?) :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3243 "2019-03-11T20:57:21Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Were there Margaret Ct. and Della St., too? There’s a Della Street in Stockton. Unfortunately, Margaret is an avenue. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3244 "2019-03-11T21:35:52Z")
Speaking of Monty Python, this is more like “things you realized the third time you’ve watched them”, but I watched Python first when it was on MTV in the 80s. Then when I saw it on PBS in the 2000s I wondered why MTV took out the vast majority of the links and only played the sketches. My first thought is that it was to edit the show down in order to show the commercials (and partly because they thought the audience wanted to see the sketches.) I thought the links were, while certainly not consistently great, part of the essence of Python. Then, when I got the DVD set and watched it for the third time, I realized, while the links are not consistently uproarious, they are consistently _filthy_. Probably a better policy to default to not showing the links than to risk a nasty controversy in the prime time 80s (rather than 11pm on PBS in the 2000s.) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3245 "2019-03-12T02:29:21Z")
Watching _Pulp Fiction_ for the 10^10^10th time or so and just, in the final coffee shop scene, just noticed that Yolanda weakly barks “shut up” to Vince while Jules is yelling at him to shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3246 "2019-03-12T12:34:07Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I’ve not seen _The Help_ _dozens_ of times ,but certainly a half dozen, and it wasn’t until the most recent that I realized when Celia is burying her miscarried fetus under a patch of flowers in her yard that there are two other patches of flowers behind her indicating she’d buried 2 previous miscarriages before that. At least I think that what we’re meant to get from it (?) :smack: Yes, I’m pretty sure that’s what we are meant to get from that scene. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3247 "2019-03-25T14:51:01Z")
This just occurred to me: The title of Disney’s children’s film The Lady and The Tramp comes from the (definitely not for children) song The Lady Is A Tramp. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3248 "2019-03-25T15:19:37Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > This just occurred to me: The title of Disney’s children’s film The Lady and The Tramp comes from the (definitely not for children) song The Lady Is A Tramp. I had to check on this. The song dates from 1937. The movie _The Lady and the Tramp_ dates from 1955, although it’s based on a 1953 book that’s either called _The Lady and the Tramp_ or _Happy Dan, the Cynical Dog_. In any event, the song well predates the movie and the book that was its inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3249 "2019-03-25T15:58:03Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I had to check on this. The song dates from 1937. The movie _The Lady and the Tramp_ dates from 1955, although it’s based on a 1953 book that’s either called _The Lady and the Tramp_ or _Happy Dan, the Cynical Dog_. In any event, the song well predates the movie and the book that was its inspiration. The original is Ward Greene’s short story “Happy Dan, the Cynical Dog” which appeared in the February 1945 \*Cosmopolitan \*(a very different magazine from the one Helen Gurley Brown made famous). This is tangential, but every Revolutionary War movie makes a big deal of the Battle of Bunker Hill (which actually took place on Breed’s Hill). I was just in Boston, staying down the street from Bunker Hill Community College. The side streets rose at about a 45 degree angle, like San Francisco except much narrower, with cars parked along both sides. Somehow it never occurred to me that the real world Bunker Hill was anything more than a name. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3250 "2019-03-25T16:03:28Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > In any event, the song well predates the movie and the book that was its inspiration. **Annie-Xmas** ’s point was that the song was the inspiration for the movie title, not the other way around. (And I don’t know if it matters, but the movie’s title is _Lady and the Tramp_ (no “The”).) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3251 "2019-03-25T16:34:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > **Annie-Xmas** ’s point was that the song was the inspiration for the movie title, not the other way around. Yes – that’s obvious. Didn’t my post make that clear? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3252 "2019-03-25T16:41:51Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This is tangential, but every Revolutionary War movie makes a big deal of the Battle of Bunker Hill (which actually took place on Breed’s Hill). I was just in Boston, staying down the street from Bunker Hill Community College. The side streets rose at about a 45 degree angle, like San Francisco except much narrower, with cars parked along both sides. Somehow it never occurred to me that the real world Bunker Hill was anything more than a name. A lot of books, working to correct mistakes of the past, point out that the Battle of Bunker Hill was really fought on Breed’s Hill. What they fail to make clear is whether the one with the monument – which is called the Bunker Hill Monument – is on Bunker Hill or Breed’s Hill. This drove me nuts for a time. It turns out that a.) The Battle really was fought on Breed’s Hill, and b.) That’s where the monument is. [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill#/media/File:Array_of_American_Forces_on_the_Field_at_the_Battle_of_Breeds_Hill.png) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill#/media/File:Array_of_American_Forces_on_the_Field_at_the_Battle_of_Breeds_Hill.png) > **[Battle of Bunker Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill)** > > United Colonies > The Battle of Bunker Hill was fought on June 17, 1775, during the Siege of Boston in the first stage of the American Revolutionary War. The battle is named after Bunker Hill in Charlestown, Massachusetts, which was peripherally involved. It was the original objective of both the colonial and British troops, though the majority of combat took place on the adjacent hill which became known as Breed's Hill. > On June 13, 1775, the leaders of the colonial forces besieging Boston l... > **[Bunker Hill Monument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_Hill_Monument)** > > The Bunker Hill Monument is a monument erected at the site of the Battle of Bunker Hill in Boston, Massachusetts, which was among the first major battles between the Red Coats and Patriots in the American Revolutionary War. The 221-foot (67 m) granite obelisk was erected between 1825 and 1843 in Charlestown, Massachusetts, with granite from nearby Quincy conveyed to the site via the purpose-built Granite Railway, followed by a trip by barge. There are 294 steps to the top. > An exhibit lodge bui... > [@](#): > > [Breed’s Hill] is about 62 feet (19 m) high, and is topped by Monument Square, site of the Bunker Hill Monument. The hill slopes fairly steeply to the east and west. In addition to its historic sites and tourist-oriented facilities, the hill is the site of a great deal of residential property, as well as supporting municipal and retail infrastructure. It is about 700 yards (640 m) from Bunker Hill.[5] > [@](#): > > “Breed’s Hill,” a plaque reads. “Site of the Battle of Bunker Hill.” > **[The True Story of the Battle of Bunker Hill](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-true-story-of-the-battle-of-bunker-hill-36721984/)** > > Nathaniel Philbrick takes on one of the Revolutionary War’s most famous and least understood battles I think the confusion of names stems from this being called “The Battle of Bunker Hill” (although both Bunker and Breed’s Hill were occupied and fortified), but with the bulk of the fight not surprisingly being on Breed’s Hill, closer to Boston and higher. Evidently nobody wanted to change the name, so the Bunker Hill Monument is on Breed’s Hill. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3253 "2019-03-25T17:45:37Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Yes – that’s obvious. Didn’t my post make that clear? When you said, “the song well predates the movie and the book that was its inspiration,” I got confused about “its inspiration” meant the song’s inspiration or the movie’s inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3254 "2019-03-25T20:29:40Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > A lot of books, working to correct mistakes of the past, point out that the Battle of Bunker Hill was really fought on Breed’s Hill. > > What they fail to make clear is whether the one with the monument – which is called the Bunker Hill Monument – is on Bunker Hill or Breed’s Hill. This drove me nuts for a time. > > It turns out that a.) The Battle really was fought on Breed’s Hill, and b.) That’s where the monument is. > > [Battle of Bunker Hill - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill#/media/File:Array_of_American_Forces_on_the_Field_at_the_Battle_of_Breeds_Hill.png) > > [Battle of Bunker Hill - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bunker_Hill) > > [Bunker Hill Monument - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_Hill_Monument) > > [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-true-story-of-the-battle-of-bunker-hill-36721984/](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-true-story-of-the-battle-of-bunker-hill-36721984/) > I think the confusion of names stems from this being called “The Battle of Bunker Hill” (although both Bunker and Breed’s Hill were occupied and fortified), but with the bulk of the fight not surprisingly being on Breed’s Hill, closer to Boston and higher. Evidently nobody wanted to change the name, so the Bunker Hill Monument is on Breed’s Hill. That’s becuase Breeds hill is smaller than Bunker hill, and at the time of the battler, Breeds Hill wasnt even named (well, I have heard both ways, so this is IIRC). So, they couldnt have called it The Battle of Breeds Hill", not to mention the original objective was Bunker Hill. Take a look at this period map, there is no Breeds Hill. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Lexington_Concord_Siege_of_Boston_crop.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Lexington_Concord_Siege_of_Boston_crop.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3255 "2019-03-25T23:38:20Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > This just occurred to me: The title of Disney’s children’s film The Lady and The Tramp comes from the (definitely not for children) song The Lady Is A Tramp. Maybe not a childrens’ song, but in its original context the singer is _defending_ the Lady, “tramp” having a connotation different from what we might assume today. Scientific Proof here: _[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=663306&highlight=tramp](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=663306&highlight=tramp)_ ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3256 "2019-03-26T12:30:27Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > When you said, “the song well predates the movie and the book that was its inspiration,” I got confused about “its inspiration” meant the song’s inspiration or the movie’s inspiration. And so seeing what you thought was an ambiguity you assumed that I’d gotten wrong what was so plainly stated. That’s rather rude. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3257 "2019-03-26T12:34:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s becuase Breeds hill is smaller than Bunker hill, and at the time of the battler, Breeds Hill wasnt even named (well, I have heard both ways, so this is IIRC). So, they couldnt have called it The Battle of Breeds Hill", not to mention the original objective was Bunker Hill. > > Take a look at this period map, there is no Breeds Hill. > > [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Lexington\_Concord\_Siege\_of\_Boston\_crop.jpg](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Lexington_Concord_Siege_of_Boston_crop.jpg) I find it hard to believe that Breed’s hill was anonymous at the time. That would be extremely odd if the larger and more prominent hill wasn’t named. Here’s a 1775 clearly showing “Breed’s Hill” > **[Today in History - June 17](https://www.loc.gov/item/today-in-history/june-17/)** > > The Battle of Bunker Hill | James Weldon Johnson Interesing note: > **[Bunker vs. Breed”s Hill: Misnamed battle sparks a social media skirmish](https://www.bostonherald.com/2016/07/01/bunker-vs-breeds-hill-misnamed-battle-sparks-a-social-media-skirmish/)** > > BOSTON — The Battle of Bunker Hill — one of the greatest misnomers in U.S. history — has sparked a social media skirmish.The 1775 battle, a rallying point for American colonists t… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3258 "2019-03-26T14:59:53Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > And so seeing what you thought was an ambiguity you assumed that I’d gotten wrong what was so plainly stated. That’s rather rude. This probably isn’t worth trying to clear up, but: At the time I posted, I didn’t see ambiguity—I saw you reporting on the dates for the song and the movie, and the only reason I could imagine those dates were relevant was that you were trying to establish which came first. And the only reason I could think that you were doing _that_ was that you mistakenly thought **Annie-Xmas** was claiming that the song was inspired by the movie. Only later, after you responded, did I go back and see that I was confused, and why. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3259 "2019-03-26T16:11:22Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > This probably isn’t worth trying to clear up, but: > > At the time I posted, I didn’t see ambiguity—I saw you reporting on the dates for the song and the movie, and the only reason I could imagine those dates were relevant was that you were trying to establish which came first. And the only reason I could think that you were doing _that_ was that you mistakenly thought **Annie-Xmas** was claiming that the song was inspired by the movie. > > Only later, after you responded, did I go back and see that I was confused, and why. Thank you for that. I’m sorry – it seems to me that I’ve frequently been jumped on by people who misread my posts and are convinced that I am blatantly wrong about something that seems perfectly clear. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3260 "2019-03-26T17:07:24Z")
Well, I mean, it can be argued that you _did_ help genocide the Metalunans… and that seems kinda wrong to me, tbh. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gus\_Gusterson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85f322/32.png) [@Gus\_Gusterson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gus_Gusterson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/3261 "2019-03-28T12:42:27Z")
In _Pulp Fiction_, when Mia is ordering her $5 shake (which I remember sounded expensive at the time but now is considered a reasonable price), Buddy Holly asks her if she wants it “Martin and Lewis or Amos and Andy”. I only figured out while watching again last night that he’s asking if she wants vanilla or chocolate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=162) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=164)