# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 244
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4865 "2022-05-03T13:53:41Z")
Back when Dave Letterman used to pester Rupert Jee all the time, RJ’s place of business was the “Hello Deli” Now, I thought this had something to do with Hello Kitty, which was screamingly popular at the time. It makes more sense as a take-off of “Hello Dolly,” since they’re not far from Broadway. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4866 "2022-05-03T14:11:15Z")
Oscar Mayer had Hello Deli commercials way back when so I got the wordplay. This was before I knew Hello Dolly was Carol Channing’s thing. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/lAOM45qLntk/hqdefault.jpg "1986 Oscar Mayer Select Slices "Well Hello Deli" TV Commercial") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAOM45qLntk) ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2022, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4867 "2022-05-03T14:17:50Z")
Frank Jacobs also wrote a “Hello, Dolly!” parody called “Hello, Deli!” for Mad Magazine: > Hello, Deli, > This is Joe, Deli, > Would you please send up a nice corned beef on rye? > A box of Ritz, Deli, > And some Schlitz, Deli, > Some chopped liver and a sliver of your apple pie? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2022, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4868 "2022-05-03T14:47:00Z")
I was thinking about drug cartels and their ruthlessness (after watching yet another episode of a cop show) and I was thinking about criminal organization logos, such as SPECTREs octopus and whatnot. Now I had always figured that those rings/tattoos whatever were like the “key to the clubhouse”. You show your cartel tattoo and you get to go to the crime meetings. Or if you are dealing with a supplier, you show the tattoo and they know the full weight of the cartel is supporting you. All well and good. But it occurred to me there is a simpler use for them: to keep the minions in line. All those nameless faceless henchmen that the movie hero kills, what motivates them? They aren’t Rosa Klebb, ideologically linked to the organization. They’re low life guns for hire, muscle. How do you keep them in line, get them to murder witness in prison, etc? “We have people everywhere!” I realized that the tattoo is more of a warning to them.“You cheat us, you refuse to do what we tell you to, and we’ll hunt you down, kill you and your family. Before you go rogue, look at the tattoo and remember that.” I thought it was like a secret society ring, when it’s more like branding a slave. I never thought of it that way until yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4869 "2022-05-03T16:08:26Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I realized that the tattoo is more of a warning to them.“You cheat us, you refuse to do what we tell you to, and we’ll hunt you down, kill you and your family. Before you go rogue, look at the tattoo and remember that.” Also, “Now, for the rest of your life, everyone will know you were a member of Team Evil, so you have nowhere to turn if you leave us.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.E](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.e/32/8932_2.png) [@Mr.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.E)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4870 "2022-05-05T01:52:03Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > It occurred to me that most of the cartoons that I remember from the 60’s were actually reruns from the 70’s. Likewise most of the 80s cartoons I “grew up on” I actually really saw when they were on Cartoon Network in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4871 "2022-05-05T01:53:49Z")
And mine were from the 20s, 30s, and 40s (though there were some that were contemporaneous with me). ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4872 "2022-05-05T17:20:42Z")
XTC and The Cars have some of their biggest hits sung by the non-frontman. XTC’s “Making Plans for Nigel” was written and sung by Colin Moulding, as was “Generals and Majors” and “Ball and Chain” - not as big as “Nigel” but certainly well known by fans. With The Cars, “Drive” and “Just What I Needed” are sung by Ben Orr. “Drive” has that iconic video and I think people knew that one, but it was only a few years ago that I realized that Orr sang lead on JWIN. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4873 "2022-05-05T17:42:16Z")
From a long-time Cars fan: Orr sang on many, many songs, especially when (as both he and Ocasek have stated) “The vocals needed to be good.” Plus, Orr was easily as much of a frontman as Ocasek. Ocasek would normally hang around in a low-key manner playing rhythm guitar, while Orr and Easton kept some movement going. Plus, Orr and Ocasek playing together (as equals) dates back much further than The Cars. ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4874 "2022-05-05T18:10:45Z")
For the first 3 Cars albums, it was almost a 50/50 split between Ocasek and Orr. The debut was 5/4, Candy-O was 6/5 and Panorama was 6/4. It wasn’t until the MTV era that Ocasek began singing the vast majority of the songs, and more noticeably, the ones that became hit singles. Other big hits of Orr’s: Let’s Go, Bye Bye Love, Moving in Stereo, Candy-O ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4875 "2022-05-05T20:55:56Z")
Nowhere near as even as The Cars, but also R.E.M. had a very competent and excellent second vocalist in Mike Mills. He sang on “Superman” from _Document_ and “Near Wild Heaven” and “Texarkana” on _Out of Time_ - two of the better tracks on that album. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4876 "2022-05-09T21:09:41Z")
This fantastic song from their last album was said to have ‘been one Ben would have sung’ [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/a96kAuEjc3g/maxresdefault.jpg "Soon") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a96kAuEjc3g) ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4877 "2022-05-09T21:52:17Z")
I… LIKE it! Wasn’t there an Arby’s “Hello Dolly” commercial? ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4878 "2022-05-11T18:21:40Z")
In the latest season of _Star Trek: Picard_ there was a scene with a punk playing loud music on a bus. I immediately got that it was a call back to the bus scene from _Star Trek IV_. However, I failed to realize until just now when I read as blog post about it that: a) It’s supposed to be the _same_ punk – he’s played by the same actor, even, and b) The reason he immediately complied with Seven’s request this time around is because he’s traumatized by what Spock did to him 35 years ago. I totally didn’t notice that he touched his neck before agreeing to turn off his music. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4879 "2022-05-11T18:36:39Z")
But did you know that the punk was played by [Kirk Thatcher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_Thatcher), who was the film’s associate producer, and also wrote and performed the song. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4880 "2022-05-11T18:44:57Z")
I did indeed know that part. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4881 "2022-05-12T02:30:32Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Not disagreeing, just throwing up a neat article. [What Is It With Mona Lisa’s Smile? It’s You! - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/21/science/what-is-it-with-mona-lisa-s-smile-it-s-you.html) The ambiguity in her expression is obvious to any woman who’s ever had her eyebrows done. Mona doesn’t have any eyebrows, and neither does the similarly ambiguous Girl With a Pearl Earring. Eyebrows convey a hell of lot of expression. That part is obvious. My own personal realisation was that the lack of eyebrows - that you see, or don’t see, in actually quite a few portraits at the time - was actually fairly common at the time of painting, due to diseases that make you lose your hair being much more common then, and head hair both grows back better and is easier to fake with a wig. (Apologies for responding to a slightly older post). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4882 "2022-05-12T09:58:55Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > In the latest season of _Star Trek: Picard_ there was a scene with a punk playing loud music on a bus. I immediately got that it was a call back to the bus scene from _Star Trek IV_ . However, I failed to realize until just now when I read as blog post about it that: a) It’s supposed to be the _same_ punk – he’s played by the same actor, even, and b) The reason he immediately complied with Seven’s request this time around is because he’s traumatized by what Spock did to him 35 years ago. I totally didn’t notice that he touched his neck before agreeing to turn off his music. Not just that - the original song was _I Hate You_. The new song was _I Still Hate You_. ---
**Author:** ![johnspartan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@johnspartan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnspartan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4883 "2022-05-26T18:33:20Z")
Sticking with Star Trek… I hadn’t pulled it through… in II we learn Kirk cheated by reprogramming the simulator to beat the no-win scenario Kobayashi Maru because he doesn’t like to lose… and we (with Kirk) learn he has a son. In III we learn David Marcus tried not following the rules in making Genesis because he got frustrated with something that seemed insurmountable. I’d missed the obvious parallel. David fudging Genesis’s no-win scenario is an echo of Kirk fudging Kobayashi Maru. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/4884 "2022-05-26T19:33:40Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > That part is obvious. My own personal realisation was that the lack of eyebrows - that you see, or don’t see, in actually quite a few portraits at the time - was actually fairly common at the time of painting, due to diseases that make you lose your hair being much more common then, and head hair both grows back better and is easier to fake with a wig. I had heard that it was style choice. Women plucked not only their eyebrows, but their eyelashes as well. They all looked like Noho Hank. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=243) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=245)