# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 260
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5187 "2023-01-01T00:26:24Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > I wouldn’t say that. The Roustabouts are all abstractions with no human features other than arms and legs. Which are indeed- Black. > [@caligulathegod](#): > > Does that excuse it? Does it need any excuse? It is necessary to insert minorities into a scene in order to tick off boxes? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5188 "2023-01-01T00:31:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Many other early Disney films were set in a Western European medieval fantasy land, which again, Black people would be unusual. So you can accept the presence of witches, dwarves, dragons, fairies, dancing broomsticks, and talking mice. But a black face in a crowd scene would have made the movie seem unrealistic to you. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5189 "2023-01-01T00:39:43Z")
You can’t see the roustabouts’ faces clearly, true. But the reason you can’t see them clearly is that they have dark skin and it’s dark out. And they’re doing work that was typically done by black men. I’d say they count. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Many other early Disney films were set in a Western European medieval fantasy land, which again, Black people would be unusual. But the only thing that makes those settings “Western European” is the fact that all of the characters are white. OK, a few of them, like Hunchback and Beauty and the Beast have other cues identifying them as France or other specific lands, but in what nation was Snow White, or Cinderella? And how can you tell? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5190 "2023-01-01T00:44:31Z")
Not a fair comment, IMHO. A fantasy setting has to be self-consistent and follow its own rules. It’s not a matter of what’s realistic, per se, but what’s appropriate vs. out-of-place (the way, say, blatantly 20th-century clothing and hairstyles might be). To @caligulathegod’s general point: it’s not at all surprising or unusual that _many_ of Disney’s animated features have no Black humans, since so many of them have most or all non-human characters and so many others are set in pre-modern Europe. But I think it _is_ surprising and noteworthy if _none_ of their many animated features have even a single Black human. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5191 "2023-01-01T00:45:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > but in what nation was Snow White, or Cinderella? Cinderella was originally a ninth century Chinese folktale. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5192 "2023-01-01T00:53:50Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not a fair comment, IMHO. A fantasy setting has to be self-consistent and follow its own rules. It’s not a matter of what’s realistic, per se, but what’s appropriate vs. out-of-place (the way, say, blatantly 20th-century clothing and hairstyles might be). That’s begging the question. You’re saying black people shouldn’t be included in a fairy tale setting because they would seem out of place in such a setting. And the reason black people would seem out of place in a fairy tale setting is because they don’t get included in those settings. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5193 "2023-01-01T00:58:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re saying black people shouldn’t be included in a fairy tale setting because they would seem out of place in such a setting. No, I’m saying that just because it’s a fairy tale setting doesn’t mean they _couldn’t_ look out of place. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5194 "2023-01-01T02:10:34Z")
Can you clarify? Do you think black people would look out of place in a fantasy setting, or NOT look out of place in a fantasy setting? Essay on this topic: [https://nkjemisin.com/2013/09/how-long-til-black-future-month/](https://nkjemisin.com/2013/09/how-long-til-black-future-month/) Black people in medieval art: [https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/](https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5195 "2023-01-01T02:38:10Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Can you clarify? Do you think black people would look out of place in a fantasy setting, or NOT look out of place in a fantasy setting? That’s irrelevant to the point that I was trying to make. (Although, if you insist on an answer to that question, it would be: I suppose it depends on the fantasy setting.) My point was that _just because_ it’s a fantasy setting doesn’t mean anything goes. Just because it contains “unrealistic” or counterfactual elements such as dragons or talking mice does not mean that it can and should contain anything and everything. I express no opinion over whether any _particular_ element is appropriate or out-of-place. I merely reject the argument that it _must_ be appropriate because fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5196 "2023-01-01T03:48:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, a few of them, like Hunchback and Beauty and the Beast have other cues identifying them as France or other specific lands, but in what nation was Snow White, or Cinderella? And how can you tell? Some generic Western Euro nation of some sort, based upon the clothing, castles, etc. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s begging the question. You’re saying black people shouldn’t be included in a fairy tale setting because they would seem out of place in such a setting. No one is saying that. If they are, that is fine. But one would not _expect_ black people in a medieval generic western European setting. I would not expect an Asian or an Amerind either. There _could_ be, and if there were, that would be fine. They added a part for Morgan Freeman in _Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves_, and it worked for me (altho the lead actor did not, Rickman and Freeman were the best parts) > [@Zyada](#): > > Black people in medieval art: [https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/](https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/) The Modern inclusion of POC in such setting is a good idea, IMHO, but since those films were not made recently, it does not say anything about the artists, etc that there are not such. We are trying to be more inclusive now, but that doesn’t mean we _need_ to add a black man to a film about the battle of Hastings, etc. Mind you, we could, the Normans had conquered Sicily, so it is not impossible, but hardly to be something the film _needs_ to have or it is racist. Were there blacks in say- The Lion in Winter nor the Adventures of Robin Hood (1938), Robin and Marion, _Henry V_, nor _William the Conqueror_ or all sorts of Medieval period costume dramas of the past? So, you are turning it around. There is a vast difference between we would not _expect_ a medieval generic western European setting **VS** there cannot be and should not be such. Of course there can be. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5197 "2023-01-01T03:59:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But one would not _expect_ black people in a medieval generic western European setting. I would not expect an Asian or an Amerind either. You wouldn’t expect talking animals to be present in a medieval generic western European setting either. So why do you accept the introduction of them into a medieval generic western European setting? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5198 "2023-01-01T04:01:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Were there blacks in say- The Lion in Winter nor the Adventures of Robin Hood (1938), Robin and Marion, _Henry V_, nor _William the Conqueror_ or all sorts of Medieval period costume dramas of the past? And you feel the explanation is the studios were striving for historical accuracy rather than the studio was appeasing the racial biases of its mostly white audience? ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2023, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5199 "2023-01-01T08:32:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You can’t see the roustabouts’ faces clearly, true. But the reason you can’t see them clearly is that they have dark skin and it’s dark out. And they’re doing work that was typically done by black men. I’d say they count. You don’t see the faces at all. They do not show ears or eyes or faces, just blobs. My point still stands even in this case. I never said black people didn’t exist, just that they weren’t represented as human characters even just standing in the backgrounds. This could be accounted, at best perhaps, with an asterisk as they are _humanoid_ abstractions. As far as the absence of such characters because of verisimilitude, it didn’t stop them from using such characters when portraying them as animals. I never really noticed any of the films too concerned about anachronism. But again, I’m not so much as criticizing Disney so much as bringing up an obvious thing about creative works that really doesn’t get realized unless one approaches it in a certain way. In my instance, it was watching them chronologically. I’ve come across many articles on Disney’s problematic history on race, but never have I found any mention of the issue of human representation being so rare or delayed. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5200 "2023-01-02T13:45:07Z")
For whatever reason, I didn’t recognize him at first, but [Liberace played a villain in the 60’s Batman series](https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/Chandell). ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5201 "2023-01-02T14:43:06Z")
No one recognized him because of the great costume… [/sarc] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5202 "2023-01-02T20:44:38Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > You don’t see the faces at all. They do not show ears or eyes or faces, just blobs. My point still stands even in this case. I never said black people didn’t exist, just that they weren’t represented as human characters even just standing in the backgrounds. This could be accounted, at best perhaps, with an asterisk as they are _humanoid_ abstractions. They’re not inhuman creatures; they’re humans who aren’t seen clearly. They look exactly like humans would look, under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5203 "2023-01-03T05:50:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > They’re not inhuman creatures; they’re humans who aren’t seen clearly. They look exactly like humans would look, under the circumstances. I don’t believe I said inhuman. They are indeed humanoid. Maybe I’m employing too much nuance. They aren’t just out of focus or in shadow, they are literally completely featureless. At best, it is impressionistic. Does it really invalidate my point that much? I was trying to say that black people exist in the Disney canon, but are only represented by animals and not by human beings. Closest we get are vague featureless impressionistic humanoids. Like I said, \* . ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5204 "2023-01-03T13:48:58Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > Closest we get are vague featureless impressionistic humanoids. It seems to me that they’re not humanoids, they’re just out of focus humans. It’s a subtle difference but an important one. To my eyes they’re black men, interchangeable and devoid of character traits, but clearly black men. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5205 "2023-01-03T15:41:45Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Q: Do you like Kipling? > > A: I don’t know, I’ve never kippled. I prefer my updated version: Q. Do you like Peter Dinklage? A. I don’t know - I’ve never had my peter dinkled. ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2023, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5206 "2023-01-03T15:43:06Z")
Do you think by “humanoid” I don’t mean human? I mean in the form of a human. And again, does this invalidate my point? The only black humans on 60 years are are 25 seconds of nondescript vague interchangeable images devoid of character traits? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=259) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=261)