# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 291
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5807 "2024-04-02T15:51:50Z")
Sure , you can collect anything you please, but whether it will ever be worth more than you paid for it is another story. And items that as sold as “collectible” generally aren’t worth more - like when every one and his brother buys those full sets of baseball cards and puts it into the attic. That’s why a set of cards bought in 1992 for $25 is worth maybe $55 today. (which is about what a 2024 set goes for) The items that end up being worth a lot are the ones that weren’t collectible when they were obtained - the 1970s McDonalds coffee stirrers go for $5 and up. Because most people threw them away when they were done with their coffee. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5808 "2024-04-02T20:00:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Which is also why anything sold as “collectible”, isn’t. Certainly they are collectable- you collect them. Just dont expect them to go up in value, except maybe inflation value. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5809 "2024-04-02T20:28:48Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > the 1970s McDonalds coffee stirrers go for $5 and up. Because most people threw them away when they were done with their coffee. Most people, yes. But then there were others who had a different idea. And that’s why we can’t have nice things. > **[Did Cocaine Users Cause McDonald's to Replace Their Coffee Spoons?](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/stirring-response/)** > > Businesses are not well served when their products are associated with illegal activities. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5810 "2024-04-05T18:16:28Z")
Today I learned that Kenneth Mars who played [Franz Liebkind](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIZKZ3C1ML8) in _The Producers_ moved to voice acting later in his career and did the voice of [King Triton](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlu9IOzUrn0) on _The Little Mermaid_. So the next time I watch _The Little Mermaid_ I’ll picture him wearing a helmet and saying “Not many people know it but Ursula was a terrific dancer.” ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2024, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5811 "2024-04-06T17:46:28Z")
He was also the voice of Grandfather in **The Land Before Time** and its infinite sequels (and the TV show!). He was also Inspector Kemp in **Young Frankenstein** and Hugh Simon (Ryan O’Neal’s nemesis) in **What’s up Doc?** , among a great many other roles. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2024, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5812 "2024-04-07T03:33:12Z")
Just saw the _Star Wars_ themes played by a live orchestra, and realized the famous theme is missing a beat right before it repeats. That is, it’s in 4/4, but for that one measure it switches to 3/4, to hurry into the repeat…likely to lend a sense of urgency to the Rebellion’s task (and of sprightly wakefulness to the film overall). ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5813 "2024-04-08T06:37:20Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > That is, it’s in 4/4, but for that one measure it switches to 3/4, to hurry into the repeat Here’s a video of [the Star Wars main theme with a score](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-wW2rX30e4). Can you hear the one measure of 3/4 in this video? If so, can you indicate the exact time? There’s no time signature change in the score shown here. Perhaps the performance you heard used a slightly different arrangement. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5814 "2024-04-08T08:02:43Z")
You’re right, but effectively I’m right, too: The main theme’s famous melody consists of: 1. A triplet pickup 2. The first full measure 3. The second full measure 4. The third full measure 5. The fourth full measure There are four phrases. The first phrase is the pickup (a triplet) and the first three beats of the first full measure. The second phrase “SHOULD” be a triplet pickup in the last beat of the first full measure, plus the first three beats of the second full measure – BUT IT ISN’T. (I bet you, if you ask 10 people to sing the melody, at least 8 of them will sing it the way it “should” be). Instead, there is a one-beat “delay” before the second phrase begins. So, the triplet pickup of the second phrase doesn’t start until the first beat of the second full measure. (And, the phrase takes up all four beats of that measure). This “offset” continues through the third phrase (takes up all four beats of the third full measure) – no _added_ “delay” this time – and likewise through the fourth phrase, in the fourth measure (it’s shorter than the others – it’s “missing” that final half note). Here’s where, effectively, I am correct: the **second** iteration of the (four-phrase) melody, naturally, starts its triplet pickup on the fourth beat of that fourth full measure. But, because of the “offset” caused by the “delay” several measures previously, it _sounds like_ that triplet pickup is a beat **early.** Really, it’s “resetting” the offset. Hope that makes sense. (Thus, technically, the “obvious thing I finally realized” was actually that one-beat “delay,” though they could just as easily have _notated_ it by giving the first full measure five beats, and that fourth full measure three, the way I now hear it intuitively). ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5815 "2024-04-08T09:26:28Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Thus, technically, the “obvious thing I finally realized” was actually that one-beat “delay,” though they could just as easily have _notated_ it by giving the first full measure five beats, and that fourth full measure three, the way I now hear it intuitively) Going by the score, we have The pickup triplet - (g4 g4 g4)3 [(3 g quarter notes ) triplet] The first full measure - c1 (c whole note) The 2nd full measure - g1 (g whole note) The 3rd full measure (f4 c4 d4)3 c’2 (c one octave higher, half note tied to next measure) The 4th full measure c’2 (tied to previous note) g2 That very last note isn’t tied to a g2 in the next measure. So what’s happening is the 2nd measure g1 is held longer (as you put it, delaying the next note), making the first statement of that phrase 5 beats (half notes), whereas the later ones are only 4 beats. Why did Williams do that? My guess is just to make it a bit different and violate our expectations slightly, which is good. As to writing that first phrase in 5, why didn’t Williams do that? I’m just an amateur musician: church choirs, HS and college chorus, and can play beginner’s piano things like hymns. All I know for sure is that if Williams, a pro musician and composer, wanted that, he’d have done it because it’s the way all pros would do it. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5816 "2024-04-08T09:51:44Z")
Agreed on all points. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5817 "2024-04-08T10:26:03Z")
…but just as a point of fact, in many instances there _is_ more than one way to notate a passage (including, where to place the division between a measure and the following one), and the performance (or range of performance styles) will be identical. See, for example, several of [David Bennett](https://www.youtube.com/@DavidBennettPiano)’s videos – he’ll often say something like “…this could have just as well been notated as a bar of 2/4 followed by a bar of 5/4…” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5818 "2024-04-08T11:46:31Z")
By chance, David Bennett speaks directly to this in his [most recent video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltvAG9GZWrQ), at around 8:15. And now I learned a new word: “entrainment” (a listener’s perception of time signature, measure length, and placement of the downbeat). ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5819 "2024-04-08T18:35:07Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > (Kenneth Mars)…was also the voice of Grandfather in **The Land Before Time** and its infinite sequels (and the TV show!). He was also Inspector Kemp in **Young Frankenstein** and Hugh Simon (Ryan O’Neal’s nemesis) in **What’s up Doc?** , among a great many other roles. Having watched “What’s Up Doc” dozens of times I think he steals every scene he’s in. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5820 "2024-04-08T18:42:09Z")
[deleted - wrong thread] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5821 "2024-04-14T23:03:29Z")
Hey, Michael Murphy, what kind of a name is “Wildfire” for a _pony_? “Toby” is a pony name. “Wildfire” is for Arabian stallions. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5822 "2024-04-14T23:49:39Z")
Weird coincidence: that was the first version of the song that he played in bars before releasing it on his album: > She ran calling _Toooooooe-ohhhhh-whoa-beeeeee-yee…_ After a month of hearing audiences snickering, he finally stopped in the middle of the song and angrily growled “Okay, I get it! You don’t like Toby. What would YOU name a dead horse?” The audience voted, and “Bucephalus” was edged out by “Wildfire”… and now you know… the rest of the story. . (none of which is true) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5823 "2024-04-14T23:59:05Z")
I mean, c’mon. If you’re gonna have a horse in a song, it’s gotta have a name. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5824 "2024-04-15T00:09:55Z")
But there’s no horse in the song; it’s a pony. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5825 "2024-04-15T00:15:31Z")
El Cid’s horse was named Babieca, “my stupid one.” That would be a good name for a horse that breaks out of a warm stall into a blizzard ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/5826 "2024-04-15T00:35:55Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > That would be a good name for a horse that breaks out of a warm stall into a blizzard Clearly unstable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=290) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=292)