# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/41 "2009-07-27T17:24:48Z")
The Terry Pratchett book “Guards! Guards!”. If you haven’t read it, spoilers below… I realized after about six million reads and listens to the audiobook that the story is a huge circle from the beginning where Sam Vimes lies in the gutter musing on the city: > [@](#): > > ‘The city wasa, wasa, wasa, wossname. Thing. Woman. That’s what it was. Woman. Roaring, ancient, centuries old. Strung you along, let you fall in thingy, love, then kicked you inna, inna, thingy. Thingy, in your mouth. Tongue. Tonsils. Teeth. That’s what it, she, did. She wasa . . . thing, you know, lady dog. Puppy. Hen. Bitch. And then you hated her and, and just when you thought you’d got her, it, out of your whatever, then she opened her great booming rotten heart to you, caught you off bal, bal, bal, thing. Ance. Yeah. Thassit. Never knew where where you stood. Lay. Only one thing you were sure of, you couldn’t let her go. Because, because she was yours, all you had, even in her gutters . . .’ He loves the city, as much as it hurts him to. At the end, when he begins to realize he has some feelings beginning for Lady Sybil, the story comes full circle: > [@](#): > > And then it arose and struck Vimes that, in her own special category, she quite beautiful; this was the category of all the women, in his entire life, who had ever thought he worth smiling at. She couldn’t do worse, but then, he couldn’t do better. So maybe it balanced out. She wasn’t getting any younger but then, who was? And she had style and money and common sense and self-assurance and all the things he didn’t, and she had opened her heart, and if you let her she could engulf you; the woman was a city. > > And eventually, under siege, you did what Ankh-Morpork had always done - unbar the gates, let the conquerors in and make them your own. He’s fallen in love with someone he has been in love with for years: the fact that Sybil owns a large portion of the city is important to this. She is the city. She is everything he loves about it: proud, strong, noble, and welcoming. It is because of her that he pulls himself out of the gutters and tries to make himself better than what he was – the worst of the city, drunk and decaying and stinking. Through the city that brought him down, he is uplifted and given the opportunity to reach his potential. For being something of a silly story about dragons, it’s also an amazing book about the redemption of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/42 "2009-07-27T18:45:00Z")
> [@Labdad](#): > > Oh, I thought that, too! And I can certainly remember the original broadcasts. Hell, I thought Paladin’s first name was “Wire!” (You know - “Wire Paladin - San Francisco”) > > A couple of decades later, I was looking something up in the dictionary and saw the word “Paladin” near the word I was looking for. I discovered a Paladin was a knight errant under the reign of Charlemagne, who went around righting wrongs. > > Shazam! OK - NOW the horsey figure (the knight chess piece) made sense! “Palidan” wasn’t the guy’s real name - it was just his working name! “A knight without armor in a savage land” - duh! Oh, and his card meant I have a gun and I will travel. Just send me a telegram. > > It only took me 20 years to discover this, though! I got the Have Gun part when I saw them originally (right before Gunsmoke on Saturday nights) but I too thought Wire was his first name. I’m watching them on DVD now, and they are awesome. One of the shows from the first season has the origin of the dance in the Star Trek pilot - in a show written by Roddenberry. In the very first show, he is introduced saying farewell to a woman, with a look that shows that Paladin doesn’t love only his horse. 🙂 But I think Paladin is his name, and he got it from the writers assigning a name to match the character. For my screwup, it took me years of listening to Dylan’s Motorpsycho Nighmare to realize it was a takeoff on Psycho - despite very obvious hints such as the title :smack: a mention of Tony Perkins :smack: and the girl’s wish for him to take a shower. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/43 "2009-07-27T18:48:43Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Another one. I was listening to the Jackson 5’s “The Love You Save” - the title, of course, is a takeoff of the safety slogan “The Life You Save May Be Your Own.” But I just noticed these lyrics: > So… Isaac (Newton), Benjy (Franklin), Alexander (Graham Bell), and Christopher (Columbus), all referencing their famous “inventions.” Clever bit of wordplay, and I’ve listened to that song all my life… That I knew. But I did not know the phrase “The life you save may be your own.” Until now. Apparently it’s also a Flannery O Connor story. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/44 "2009-07-27T18:55:39Z")
I have been a fan of the movie _Heavy Metal_ since its debut in 1981. A couple of months ago, a friend pointed out that “Harry Canyon” is a double-entendre. :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/45 "2009-07-27T19:35:59Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Scarecrow wants a brain…yet he’s the smartest guy in the group who comes up with all the ideas. > Tinman wants a heart, but he’s a sentimental lug. > Cowardly lion wants courage, and he’s the toughest SOB there. > > Duh. Oh yeah. **Wizard of Oz** is just a series of embarrassments for me. I was probably 13 before I realized the farmhands were the same actors as the traveling companions in Oz. I was in college I think when I realized Scarecrow was smartest, Tin Man the most loving, and the lion was the bravest. I was a couple years _out of college_ when I realized the wizard sent them on a quest because he wanted them to die, or at least be taken prisoner by the witch, so they wouldn’t be his problem. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/46 "2009-07-27T19:38:23Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I was a couple years _out of college_ when I realized the wizard sent them on a quest because he wanted them to die, or at least be taken prisoner by the witch, so they wouldn’t be his problem. WHAT?!?! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/47 "2009-07-28T01:12:50Z")
He was a humbug! He couldn’t get her home, of course. So… ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/48 "2009-07-28T01:26:27Z")
He didn’t want them dead, or captured - he was a humbug, not an asshole - he just wanted them to fail (or better yet, give up) and get out of his hair. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/49 "2009-07-28T01:33:16Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > He didn’t want them dead, or captured - he was a humbug, not an asshole - he just wanted them to fail (or better yet, give up) and get out of his hair. It’s been a long time. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Stauderhorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Stauderhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stauderhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/50 "2009-07-28T03:28:52Z")
Just now. Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Gold-i-locks. Gold locks = blond hair. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/51 "2009-07-28T03:45:02Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Oh yeah. **Wizard of Oz** is just a series of embarrassments for me. > > I was probably 13 before I realized the farmhands were the same actors as the traveling companions in Oz. When I watched \*WoO \*as a child, my mother told me that the farmhands were the same guys as the Scarecrow, the Tinman and the Lion, but I didn’t believe her till I was about 13 or so. I just didn’t see it. Of course, this was back in the Dark Ages, when it was only on once a year, so it’s not like I could have stopped the VCR or DVD to make sure. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/52 "2009-07-28T03:51:49Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Actually, there _is_ a connotation in ‘Brown Eyed’. Brown Eyed Girl, Brown Eyed Handsome Man? > > They’re black. That might be a connotation in the American south, but hardly in '50s or '60s Belfast. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/53 "2009-07-28T04:01:04Z")
I hesitate to mention this, because last time we did one of these it came close to derailing the thread. But Kris in _Miracle on 34th Street_? Just a nice old man with whiskers. He’s the beneficiary of a dozen people making more or less self-interested decisions (Macy and Gimbel wanting to look good for their customers; Fred hating his old job and wanting something outrageous to build his resume; Doris needing to prove to Fred that she wasn’t a wrinkled up prune; the judge and political boss counting votes, and the post office getting rid of all those dead letters). It’s easier to see in the full-length version, as the broadcast one cuts a few important bits to fit in an extra commercial – most importantly, the scene where Macy and Gimbel are fighting over who gets to buy Kris the X-Ray machine so they can look good in front of the press. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/54 "2009-07-28T04:18:42Z")
Miller’s Crossing. I had seen this movie about 5 or 6 times and was blown away when a friend told me The Dane was gay. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/55 "2009-07-28T14:41:10Z")
> [@BiblioCat](#): > > When I watched \*WoO \*as a child, my mother told me that the farmhands were the same guys as the Scarecrow, the Tinman and the Lion, but I didn’t believe her till I was about 13 or so. I just didn’t see it. Of course, this was back in the Dark Ages, when it was only on once a year, so it’s not like I could have stopped the VCR or DVD to make sure. 😃 Preposterous! They can’t be the same people. Anybody with eyes can see that the Scarecrow, Tin Man & Cowardly Lion are in full technicolor, while the mere farmhands are in black & white! 😃 Anyway, one little detail that I’d never noticed before about ‘Oz’ (until about the umpteen-millionth time I saw it) was the scene in which Dorothy & crew are entering the black woods on their way to kill the Wicked Witch. The Scarecrow is carrying a large mallet, and the Tin Man has a revolver(!) b ut missing his axe. Both weapons mysteriously vanish before the flying monkeys attack. (I couldn’t find an appropriate clip on youtube - but if you have the DVD, you can check it out for yourself.) Also, there is the legendary (and false) UL about [the munchkin who hanged himself](http://snopes.com/movies/films/ozsuicide.asp). (Long story short: It was actually a large bird.) I had seen the ‘incriminating’ shadow before, and knew the story. But it wasn’t until I read Snopes’ article debunking the myth that I ever noticed the birds wandering around in the background. And they’re all over that set! ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/56 "2009-07-28T15:14:22Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > I hesitate to mention this, because last time we did one of these it came close to derailing the thread. But Kris in _Miracle on 34th Street_? Just a nice old man with whiskers. He’s the beneficiary of a dozen people making more or less self-interested decisions (Macy and Gimbel wanting to look good for their customers; Fred hating his old job and wanting something outrageous to build his resume; Doris needing to prove to Fred that she wasn’t a wrinkled up prune; the judge and political boss counting votes, and the post office getting rid of all those dead letters). You’re correct, but the final scene makes it clear that he’s more than just a nice old man with whiskers. And, for whatever reason, he made all the self-interested decisions happen. You could argue for open-endedness, but the film makes clear that his he’s more than just a nice old man. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/57 "2009-07-28T15:27:33Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > He didn’t want them dead, or captured - he was a humbug, not an asshole - he just wanted them to fail (or better yet, give up) and get out of his hair. He sent them to get the broomstick of the wicked witch! He at least knew he was giving them a mission that was be suicidal if they undertook it, and for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/58 "2009-07-28T16:27:56Z")
> [@The New and Improved Superman](#): > > Preposterous! They can’t be the same people. Anybody with eyes can see that the Scarecrow, Tin Man & Cowardly Lion are in full technicolor, while the mere farmhands are in black & white! > > 😃 > Anyway, one little detail that I’d never noticed before about ‘Oz’ (until about the umpteen-millionth time I saw it) was the scene in which Dorothy & crew are entering the black woods on their way to kill the Wicked Witch. The Scarecrow is carrying a large mallet, and the Tin Man has a revolver(!) b ut missing his axe. Both weapons mysteriously vanish before the flying monkeys attack. (I couldn’t find an appropriate clip on youtube - but if you have the DVD, you can check it out for yourself.) > > Also, there is the legendary (and false) UL about [the munchkin who hanged himself](http://snopes.com/movies/films/ozsuicide.asp). (Long story short: It was actually a large bird.) I had seen the ‘incriminating’ shadow before, and knew the story. But it wasn’t until I read Snopes’ article debunking the myth that I ever noticed the birds wandering around in the background. And they’re all over that set! There is a deleted scene where they lose them in the haunted forest. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/59 "2009-07-28T16:32:32Z")
> [@bup](#): > > He sent them to get the broomstick of the wicked witch! He at least knew he was giving them a mission that was be suicidal if they undertook it, and for no reason. Hell, the entire movie from the arrival in Munchkin Land on is just Glinda’s convoluted plan to become the only power left in Oz. She could have sent Dorothy home immediately - her excuse of “You had to learn how much you missed home before you could return” is BS. Dorothy was trying to go back to Auntie Em when she got caught by the tornado. Glinda just saw Dorothy as a stooge she could use to expose the Wizard as a fraud, and kill the WWotW, **then** send her home. You can’t tell me Glinda didn’t know that the Wizard was just a humbug, or that the WWotW couldn’t actually kill Dorothy. By the end of the movie, Glinda was ready to rule Oz with an iron fist. Sure, “only bad witches are ugly”, but they can be beautiful too. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/60 "2009-07-28T16:34:03Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Hell, the entire movie from the arrival in Munchkin Land on is just Glinda’s convoluted plan to become the only power left in Oz. She could have sent Dorothy home immediately - her excuse of “You had to learn how much you missed home before you could return” is BS. Dorothy was trying to go back to Auntie Em when she got caught by the tornado. Glinda just saw Dorothy as a stooge she could use to expose the Wizard as a fraud, and kill the WWotW, **then** send her home. You can’t tell me Glinda didn’t know that the Wizard was just a humbug, or that the WWotW couldn’t actually kill Dorothy. By the end of the movie, Glinda was ready to rule Oz with an iron fist. Sure, “only bad witches are ugly”, but they can be beautiful too. Along with Madame Morrible and the Wizard, right? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=4)