# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 303
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6047 "2024-11-25T05:17:57Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > Do any of them end up looking like Boris Karloff? It was a tv show. They ended up looking like Raymond Massey. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6048 "2024-11-25T06:00:36Z")
I hesitate to admit this because I’m about to sound like an idiot. “Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this **SUN** of York.” I’ve never really read the play and I only know details about through context clues so all these years I thought that line was referring to a person … a “Son of York.” I never bothered to figure out who it might be referring to … it always just was. I only figured it out when I copied the text for an AI creation and actually read what I pasted. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6049 "2024-11-25T07:55:50Z")
That sun being the Yorkist’s insignia, as the bard’s audience would have known. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6050 "2024-11-25T17:52:46Z")
Represented cleverly in the flag of the [West Riding of Yorkshire.](https://britishcountyflags.com/2013/05/24/yorkshire-west-riding-flag/) Along with the Cross of St. George but in the Scandinavian configuration to represent the Viking history of York. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6051 "2024-11-25T22:44:18Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I hesitate to admit this because I’m about to sound like an idiot. > > “Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this **SUN** of York.” > > I’ve never really read the play and I only know details about through context clues so all these years I thought that line was referring to a person … a “Son of York.” I never bothered to figure out who it might be referring to … it always just was. I only figured it out when I copied the text for an AI creation and actually read what I pasted. Some versions have it as “son,” so you’re not the only one confused. Edward’s symbol was the “sun in splendor.” He took it because before a battle, there were three suns in the sky (a meteorological effect called a "sundog’). His troops noticed and wondered what sort of omen it was. Edward, no fool, told them it was a sign of the upcoming victory. They won, and he used it as one of his symbols. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6052 "2024-11-25T23:44:41Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Edward’s symbol was the “sun in splendor.” He took it because before a battle, there were three suns in the sky (a meteorological effect called a "sundog’) Actually, “sundog” refers to the two “mock suns” or “Parhelia” on either side of the real sun. So he had the real sun and two sundogs. Sundogs are caused by oriented hexagonal ice crystals in the atmosphere – generally hexagonal plates, oriented with the flat surfaces horizontal. If you’ve got enough of them in the air, you can get one sundog on either side of the sun. The phenomenon is only really visible close to sunrise or sunset. The sundogs can be brilliantly rainbow-colored, if the crystals are large. Or they’ll just look like weaker suns if the crystals are small. It’s actually a very common phenomenon, slightly more common than rainbows. But most people don’t know to look for them, or recognize them for what they are, so they’re not as well-known. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6053 "2024-11-26T01:08:50Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > > > I hesitate to admit this because I’m about to sound like an idiot. > > > > “Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this **SUN** of York.” > > > > I’ve never really read the play and I only know details about through context clues so all these years I thought that line was referring to a person … a “Son of York.” I never bothered to figure out who it might be referring to … it always just was. I only figured it out when I copied the text for an AI creation and actually read what I pasted. > > Some versions have it as “son,” so you’re not the only one confused. Now I’m thinking I’m missing something. Isn’t it obvious that Shakespeare meant it to be taken either/both ways? Unless I’m looking at the wrong thing it’s written in the First Folio as: NOw is the Winter of our Discontent, Made glorious Summer by this Son of Yorke ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6054 "2024-11-26T21:31:02Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > It’s actually a very common phenomenon, slightly more common than rainbows. But most people don’t know to look for them, or recognize them for what they are, so they’re not as well-known. Sun dogs are pretty common, yes. But sun dogs bright enough to be mistaken for the actual Sun are, I imagine, much rarer. I think I saw one such once, as a child, but the only adult I was with ignored me. “Daddy, look, out the window, there’s two suns in the sky!” “It’s just the full moon, son”, and he kept driving. I knew then and know now full well that it wasn’t the full moon, and if any child ever tells me something like that, I’m darned well stopping the car to look. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2024, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6055 "2024-11-26T22:29:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@CalMeacham](#): > > > > It’s actually a very common phenomenon, slightly more common than rainbows. But most people don’t know to look for them, or recognize them for what they are, so they’re not as well-known. > > Sun dogs are pretty common, yes. But sun dogs bright enough to be mistaken for the actual Sun are, I imagine, much rarer. Making me think of a Rush song. Sun dogs fire on the horizon Meteor rain stars across the night This moment may be brief But it can be so bright ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2024, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6056 "2024-11-27T12:47:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sun dogs are pretty common, yes. But sun dogs bright enough to be mistaken for the actual Sun are, I imagine, much rarer. True. Most sun dogs are pretty negligible – they look like yellowish or brownish smudges in the cirrus clouds to the side of the sun. But sometimes you get a spectacular display, generally with large ice crystals, where the sundogs are bright and rainbow-colored, and are themselves transfixed by vertical “sun pillars” > **[3D Weather: Breaking down sun dog phenomenon](https://nbcmontana.com/news/local/3d-weather-breaking-down-sun-dog-phenomenon)** > > The sky can produce some incredible sights, and one of those features is an optical phenomenon known as a sun dog or parhelion. Watch the video above as Meteoro ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6057 "2024-11-29T02:55:32Z")
I tuned into the last 10 minutes of It’s A Wonderful Life early this evening, and I absolutely blubbed. It took me a while, but I realized one thing about the story that I hadn’t realized before: George had built up a lifetime of goodwill, which came to the good when he needed it most. But he didn’t behave the way he did in his life as a quid pro quo. That’s just the sort of person he was. Everybody loved him for it, and would have done even if he hadn’t been faced with prison and disgrace. Why did I blub? Because I’m not that sort of person. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6058 "2024-11-29T14:09:37Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Now I’m thinking I’m missing something. Isn’t it obvious that Shakespeare meant it to be taken either/both ways? Yep, it’s a three-way play on words – playing on Edward IV’s sun insignia, the fact that he was the son of the Duke of York, _and_ the image of the sun making winter into summer. It’s spelled “sonne” in the Quarto text and “Son” in the Folio, but given the vagaries of early modern spelling, “sun” is a perfectly defensible editorial choice, one that takes in 2/3 of the potential meanings. (Modern-spelling editions are a blessing for the casual reader, but they do force editors to make either / or choices in situations where the original author almost certainly intended it to be all / and.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2024, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6059 "2024-11-29T14:26:41Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Yep, it’s a three-way play on words And back in the early history of this board when we lost a couple months worth of posts, we made it into a four-way, by calling it the Winter of our Missed Content. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2024, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6060 "2024-11-30T01:30:35Z")
A swallow may not be able to carry a whole coconut, but there’s no proof that the coconut wasn’t emptied, and the shell cut in half before two swallows carried the halves to Britain. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2024, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6061 "2024-12-09T16:20:20Z")
Just occurred to me last night that the Cartwrights of Bonanza were the opposites of the main characters of the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy = young girl, Ben = older man. Scarecrow lacks brains, Adam was known for his. Tin Man lacked a heart, Little Joe was a sensitive ladies’ man. Cowardly Lion lacked courage, Hoss wasn’t afraid of anything. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6062 "2024-12-10T04:23:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Just occurred to me last night that the Cartwrights of Bonanza were the opposites of the main characters of the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy = young girl, Ben = older man. Scarecrow lacks brains, Adam was known for his… Dorothy left and then came back home, Adam left never to return. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6063 "2024-12-10T16:28:12Z")
I’d say the comparison is still between Ben and Dorothy. Dorothy was lost and didn’t know how to get to her home and family. Ben’s strongest characteristic was how much he was in his home surrounded by his family. And then the Cylons attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6064 "2024-12-10T17:33:06Z")
In my defense I’ve never seen the show but I am aware of it. The British show _Call the Midwife_ has been on for 12 years or so. Until a couple of minutes ago I thought it was named “Call of the Midwife” or “The Call of the Midwife.” Like _The Call of the Wild._ To be honest I like my title better. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6065 "2024-12-10T21:17:12Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > In my defense I’ve never seen the show but I am aware of it. The British show _Call the Midwife_ I am very aware of that show as here, when talking about Downton Abbey, several posters kept bring up that show over and over. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6066 "2024-12-10T21:54:44Z")
The other day I was watching one of those reaction videos to the _Star Trek: TNG_ episode “Deja Q”. At one point in the episode Q made an offhand remark to Riker to the effect of “You’ve changed since the beard”. Wait… Was that a reference to the widespread sentiment that the quality of the show markedly improved after Riker grew a beard? Was that something Star Trek fans were widely discussing at the time? I was 10 years old when that episode first aired, so I wasn’t exactly plugged in to the fan community. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=302) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=304)