# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 311
**Author:** ![Surfing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@Surfing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surfing)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2025, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6207 "2025-03-12T23:22:51Z")
I’m 61 and only recently learned that the song Vincent by Don McLean is about Vincent Van Gogh. Ha, for years I thought he was singing about his brother or something. Listening now I can’t imagine how I missed that. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6208 "2025-03-13T12:56:04Z")
I just realized today that in the song _Clementine_, the miner’s daughter is said to have fallen into “the foaming brine.” A saltwater river/stream/brook/creek? That strikes me as implausible. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6209 "2025-03-13T14:13:48Z")
Brine mining: > **[Brine mining](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brine_mining#:~:text=Brine%20mining%20is%20the%20extraction,minimization%20and%20resource%20recovery%20efforts)** > > Brine mining is the extraction of useful materials (chemical elements or compounds) which are naturally dissolved in brine. The brine may be seawater, other surface water, groundwater, or hyper-saline solutions from several industries (e.g., textile industries). It differs from solution mining or in-situ leaching in that those methods inject water or chemicals to dissolve materials which are in a solid state; in brine mining, the materials are already dissolved. > Brines are important sources of c... To quote about one of the uses: > [@](#): > > In 1997 about two-thirds of world sodium sulfate production was recovered from brine. Two plants in the US, at Searles Lake, California, and Seagraves, Texas, recovered sodium sulfate from shallow brines beneath dry lakes. Not too sure if brine mining is what the song was referring to, or just runoff which is “briney”, but there is likely a rational explanation which made sense at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6210 "2025-03-13T14:29:54Z")
> [@Surfing](#): > > I’m 61 and only recently learned that the song Vincent by Don McLean is about Vincent Van Gogh. Ha, for years I thought he was singing about his brother or something. Listening now I can’t imagine how I missed that. Ha! As a kid I thought I was _so clever_ for deciphering that completely obscure reference. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6211 "2025-03-13T14:42:26Z")
Well, you had my mom beat. She thought it was a song about a gay guy. Of course, she’s not ever been one to pay attention to lyrics (or art). ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6212 "2025-03-13T14:45:20Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Not too sure if brine mining is what the song was referring to, or just runoff which is “briney”, but there is likely a rational explanation which made sense at the time. Clementine’s father was a “miner forty-niner” which implies he was a gold miner. I figured the term “foaming brine” was used for the rhyme. I had always figured the singer had murdered Clementine, he does run off with her little sister at the end of the song. Odd note: I was double-checking the lyrics just now, and have discovered the Scouts removed the verse where he runs off with Clementine’s sister, and added a couple verses about how much the singer mourns Clementine. This must be new. I remember singing Clementine at camp, and the song had always ended with: ```auto How I missed her How I missed her How I missed my Clementine Until I kissed her little sister And forgot my Clementine! ``` ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6213 "2025-03-13T14:46:31Z")
I had the same situation with realizing that “Black Velvet” was about Elvis. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6214 "2025-03-13T14:55:26Z")
It took me forever to recognize the Travis in _Red Angel Dragnet_ by The Clash was Travis Bickle from _Taxi Driver_. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6215 "2025-03-13T15:06:39Z")
> [@Maus\_Magill](#): > > I remember singing Clementine at camp, and the song had always ended with: > > ```auto > How I missed her > How I missed her > How I missed my Clementine > Until I kissed her little sister > And forgot my Clementine! > > ``` That sounds like the kind of lyrics kids would come up with by themselves. We had a whole genre of “Glory Glory Hallelujah!” verses involving teachers and their untimely demise. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6216 "2025-03-13T15:25:50Z")
I verified these lyrics that I remembered from Camp with a State Department site with American folk song lyrics. I had no idea such a thing existed until this morning. > **[9-clementine-lyrics.pdf](https://americanenglish.state.gov/files/ae/resource_files/9-clementine-lyrics.pdf)** ---
**Author:** ![EnolaStraight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@EnolaStraight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnolaStraight)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6217 "2025-03-13T16:45:54Z")
I remember a recording of Clementine whereas she did not drown…she simply got impatient with the narrator “cortin’ too slow”, and she got snatched up by some other guy. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6218 "2025-03-13T19:54:04Z")
I think the lyric “courtin’ too slow” comes from “On Top of Old Smokey.” Perhaps the two songs were conflated. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2025, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6219 "2025-03-13T20:57:27Z")
Just jumping in to say that today is the first time I ever heard of the “Until I kissed her little sister” lyrics. ETA. But maybe we never got past the first verse at camp. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6220 "2025-03-14T00:10:45Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > We had a whole genre of “Glory Glory Hallelujah!” verses involving teachers and their untimely demise. He jumped from 20 thousand feet and didn’t pull the cord, He jumped from 20 thousand feet and didn’t pull the cord, He jumped from 20 thousand feet and didn’t pull the cord, And he ain’t gonna jump no more! See also, O Tom the Toad, O Tom the Toad, why are you lying on the road You did not see, the car ahead, and now you’re wearing tire tread O Tom the Toad, O Tom the Toad, why are you lying on the road ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6221 "2025-03-14T00:56:16Z")
In the [Wizard of Oz tornado scene,](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo3uvhBCx0E) Dorothy sees Miss Gulch transform into the Wicked Witch of the _East_, not the West. She’s wearing the ruby slippers and striped socks in the linked clip. Gulch/East gets her deserts either by the tornado or in Munchkinland, and isn’t seen again when Dorothy returns to Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6222 "2025-03-14T01:57:52Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > > [@CalMeacham](#): > > > > On the other hand, I never heard of a “Toga Party” before Animal House came out. > > Somewhere in the 1952-4 archives of the Wisconsin State Journal is a photo of my mom attending one. My high school’s Latin class always had an “orgy” during the Fall semester – essentially a potluck with the kids wearing sheet togas. That started sometime in the late 50s (my high school was only establishing in 1952) and was still around in the middle to late 60s. No idea if it still is being done. The sophomores were the “slaves” to the juniors and seniors, but it was also pretty PG. Just serving food or doing silly errands. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6223 "2025-03-14T02:21:17Z")
On Jeopardy! tonight it was made apparent to me that “The Grapes of Wrath” title came from the lyrics of “The Battle Hymn of the Republic”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6224 "2025-03-14T06:57:44Z")
> [@Maus\_Magill](#): > > > [@JohnT](#): > > > > Not too sure if brine mining is what the song was referring to, or just runoff which is “briney”, but there is likely a rational explanation which made sense at the time. > > Clementine’s father was a “miner forty-niner” which implies he was a gold miner. I figured the term “foaming brine” was used for the rhyme. I had always figured the singer had murdered Clementine, he does run off with her little sister at the end of the song. > > Odd note: I was double-checking the lyrics just now, and have discovered the Scouts removed the verse where he runs off with Clementine’s sister, and added a couple verses about how much the singer mourns Clementine. This must be new. I remember singing Clementine at camp, and the song had always ended with: > > ```auto > How I missed her > How I missed her > How I missed my Clementine > Until I kissed her little sister > And forgot my Clementine! > > ``` Now the G&S verse of _Clementine_ as performed by Tom Lehrer makes sense! _That I missed her depressed her young sister named Esther this mister to pester the tried Now a pestering sister’s a festering blister you’re best to resist her, say I!_ _The mister resisted, the sister persisted when I kissed her all loyalty slipped When she said I could have her, her sister’s cadaver must surely have turned in its crypt! Yes, yes, yes, yes!_ ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6225 "2025-03-14T07:17:14Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > In the [Wizard of Oz tornado scene,](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo3uvhBCx0E) Dorothy sees Miss Gulch transform into the Wicked Witch of the _East_, not the West. She’s wearing the ruby slippers and striped socks in the linked clip. Gulch/East gets her deserts either by the tornado or in Munchkinland, and isn’t seen again when Dorothy returns to Kansas. I’d like this to be true, but when I pause that clip in various spots, I can’t see striped stockings, and the shoes aren’t clearly the ruby slippers. Something that appears to be striped seems to be the broom. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6226 "2025-03-14T10:02:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Now the G&S verse of _Clementine_ as performed by Tom Lehrer makes sense! Coincidentally, Lehrer used “brine” to refer to a freshwater river in “The Subway Song”: “C is Charles that overlooks the brine.” ([Genius.com](http://Genius.com) suggests that it’s a reference to “inflow from the sea.”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=310) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=312)