# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 312
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6227 "2025-03-14T10:17:38Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’d like this to be true, but when I pause that clip in various spots, I can’t see striped stockings, and the shoes aren’t clearly the ruby slippers. Something that appears to be striped seems to be the broom. I agree, and Gulch becoming the Wicked Witch of the _East_ doesn’t make sense within the structure of the story: four other characters in Oz are counterparts of people in Kansas. Why would Gulch, the main adversary in Kansas, turn into someone who’s never seen again? Unless the two witches are not only sisters, but identical twins. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6228 "2025-03-14T11:23:42Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > > > Now the G&S verse of _Clementine_ as performed by Tom Lehrer makes sense! > > Coincidentally, Lehrer used “brine” to refer to a freshwater river in “The Subway Song”: “C is Charles that overlooks the brine.” > > ([Genius.com](http://Genius.com) suggests that it’s a reference to “inflow from the sea.”) Yes, but the lower part of the Charles River is a tidal estuary. I don’t think there were many of those in caverns in canyons in Gold Rush territory. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6229 "2025-03-14T16:01:30Z")
My source was the trivia section on IMDB. Further Googling other cites also states it’s the Wicked Witch of the East. I didn’t find any that dispute it. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6230 "2025-03-14T16:05:44Z")
Yeah, well, the trivia section of IMDb (to which I myself have contributed) is full of stuff from random nut jobs on the internet, unlike the SDMB, which is… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6231 "2025-03-14T17:19:28Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Yes, but the lower part of the Charles River is a tidal estuary. Not any more, or at least not where the Red Line crosses it. There’s a dam downstream pf the Longfellow Bridge which I assume predates Lehrer’s song. I’ll have to check the next time I’m at the Charles Station to see if any seawater is visible. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6232 "2025-03-14T18:15:07Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Not any more, or at least not where the Red Line crosses it. There’s a dam downstream pf the Longfellow Bridge which I assume predates Lehrer’s song. I’ll have to check the next time I’m at the Charles Station to see if any seawater is visible. Having fallen into the Charles River basin\*, after the building of the dam, I can assure you it was salty then, and probably when Lehrer wrote the song, too. - Don’t ask ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6233 "2025-03-14T18:51:41Z")
How many times do I have to tell you this, Cal; no car surfing on the duck boats. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6234 "2025-03-14T19:01:10Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > I agree, and Gulch becoming the Wicked Witch of the _East_ doesn’t make sense within the structure of the story: four other characters in Oz are counterparts of people in Kansas. Why would Gulch, the main adversary in Kansas, turn into someone who’s never seen again? But Gulch is never seen again either. The film implies she turns into a Witch, like the East, and dies there in OZ. Gulch is not in the books, of course. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6235 "2025-03-14T19:34:04Z")
So she’s the identical twin of the WWotW? I admit that there’s a certain logic to her being seen in the tornado, and later somehow being caught under the house when it lands. But I don’t see the ruby slippers (which are obviously sepia in that scene), nor any sign of striped stockings. And the WWotW dies in Oz too, so there’s no more reason to expect to see Gulch in the final scene if she turned into the WWotW than if she became the WWotE. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2025, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6236 "2025-03-14T20:00:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But Gulch is never seen again either. The film implies she turns into a Witch, like the East, and dies there in OZ. Gulch is not in the books, of course. “Misses Gulch? Yeah, she was ridin’ her bike durin’ that tornader and Lem from down South said he saw her fall into a puddle and never came out. There was all sort of screamin’ and cursin’ but they never found her body. All that was left was her hat.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2025, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6237 "2025-03-15T14:05:24Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > Yeah, well, the trivia section of IMDb (to which I myself have contributed) is full of stuff from random nut jobs on the internet, unlike the SDMB, which is… …highly select and elite nutjobs on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2025, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6238 "2025-03-15T14:16:44Z")
…plus a few total dipsticks. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2025, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6239 "2025-03-15T14:21:03Z")
…who would like to remind you that dipsticks have a long and proud legacy of aiding (and many times _saving)_ the engine that they’re built to serve. > **[The GMC Motorhome Had An Oil Dipstick About As Long As My Mom Is Tall - The...](https://www.theautopian.com/the-gmc-motorhome-had-an-oil-dipstick-about-as-long-as-my-mom-is-tall/)** > > There are a few vehicles that seem to come up over and over amongst the Autopian staff, cars that always manage to catch our attention and distract us from whatever we’re trying to do. Cars like, let’s see – and of course these sometimes are more... ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2025, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6240 "2025-03-15T14:49:09Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > Not any more, or at least not where the Red Line crosses it. There’s a dam downstream pf the Longfellow Bridge which I assume predates Lehrer’s song. I’ll have to check the next time I’m at the Charles Station to see if any seawater is visible. > > Having fallen into the Charles River basin\*, after the building of the dam, I can assure you it was salty then, and probably when Lehrer wrote the song, too. > > - Don’t ask I didn’t realize that you were [Waylon Jennings](https://genius.com/The-highwaymen-highwayman-lyrics)! ---
**Author:** ![De\_La\_Rue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@De\_La\_Rue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/De_La_Rue)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2025, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6241 "2025-03-15T16:28:59Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I’d like this to be true, but when I pause that clip in various spots, I can’t see striped stockings, and the shoes aren’t clearly the ruby slippers. I checked the screenplay ([this one](https://openlibrary.org/works/OL4771408W/The_wizard_of_Oz?edition=key%3A/books/OL2183523M)) and it just says “her clothes change into a flying robe and pointed hat of a witch”. No witch specified. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6242 "2025-03-17T09:00:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > …highly select and elite nutjobs on the Internet Top. Nutjobs. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6243 "2025-03-17T11:01:10Z")
I have been a fan of Douglas Fairbanks ever since seeing a few of his silent films with live organ accompaniment by the late Ray Brubacher at the American Film Institute theater in Washington, DC, in the late 1970s. A particular favorite of mine is _The Mark of Zorro_ (1920). I was watching _The Princess Bride_ for the umpteenth time, and happened to watch one of the special features that pointed out that the Dread Pirate Roberts’ mask and headscarf are taken from the ones Fairbanks wore as Zorro. [![](https://prod3.agileticketing.net/images/user/cace_3663/Mark_of_Zorro.jpeg) ](https://prod3.agileticketing.net/images/user/cace_3663/Mark_of_Zorro.jpeg) [![](https://secretcompassonline.com/cdn/shop/files/westley-aka-the-dread-pirate-roberts_the-princess-bride_gallery_5c4c366bf2d7a_1200x857.jpg?v=1718038524) ](https://secretcompassonline.com/cdn/shop/files/westley-aka-the-dread-pirate-roberts_the-princess-bride_gallery_5c4c366bf2d7a_1200x857.jpg?v=1718038524) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6244 "2025-03-17T11:55:37Z")
They’re quite comfortable. I predict that everyone will be wearing them in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6245 "2025-03-17T12:33:08Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > the Dread Pirate Roberts’ mask and headscarf are taken from the ones Fairbanks wore as Zorro. This is an artifact from the movie, but it doesn’t seem to be supported by the original text. In the book: > “You can not tell it,” he then said “because I wear a cape and a mask. But I am smiling now.” > “Why?” > “Because I am not left-handed either,” said the man in black. Goldman must have envisioned a different mask than the one used in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2025, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6246 "2025-03-17T13:36:52Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > This is an artifact from the movie, but it doesn’t seem to be supported by the original text. > > > “You can not tell it,” he then said “because I wear a cape and a mask. Well, yes, I was speaking about the movie. But except for the mention of the cape, which the DPR doesn’t have in the movie, I don’t see what your basis is for claiming that… > Goldman must have envisioned a different mask than the one used in the movie. The book also mentions he wears a hood (presumably, then, a hooded cape). But if director Rob Reiner decided against giving him a hooded cape, there seems to be no reason to think that the mask the DPR wears in the book is unlike the one in the film. In any case, the obvious thing I hadn’t realized after seeing both of the films many times was the similarity in the masks (and indeed, the entire costumes) of Zorro and the DPR. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=311) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=313)