# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 320
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2025, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6387 "2025-06-26T00:16:33Z")
I thought we were supposed to be discussing bears. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2025, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6388 "2025-06-26T00:27:57Z")
You don’t come here for the subject of the OP do you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2025, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6389 "2025-06-26T02:01:47Z")
My cat’s breath smells like cat food. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2025, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6390 "2025-06-26T10:46:25Z")
In the movie version of _Serenity_, there are these two guys, Fante and Mingo, played by identical twins. Fante and Mingo, Fante and Mingo… where have we heard those names before? It was in _The Big Combo._ Fante was Lee Van Cleef and Mingo was Earl Holliman. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6391 "2025-06-27T02:37:49Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > bears are not a natural species in North America > > This isn’t true. Bears have been in North America since the last Ice Age. The black bear, the brown bear, and the polar bear have been native to North America since at least then. If you wait fifteen minutes, you can check on Wikipedia and verify everything I posted. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6392 "2025-06-27T05:12:05Z")
An hour and it’s too late. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6393 "2025-06-27T05:30:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > the black bear that ol’ Will probably had in mind. Joking? Europe had brown bears. I understand that The Winter’s Tale is set in a mythical past time, an unspecified date, but long ago. Also, I understand that there were bears in Sicily in the past. I have been unable to find exactly when they died out , but a tale set in the past could plausibly have them. Shakespeare probably didn’t know that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6394 "2025-06-27T08:57:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you wait fifteen minutes, you can check on Wikipedia and verify everything I posted. What are you talking about? Bears have been in North America since the last Ice Age. The black bear, the brown bear, and the polar bear have been native to North America since at least then. Do you mean something weirdly different about calling them natural rather than native? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6395 "2025-06-27T09:09:28Z")
“If the person you are talking to doesn’t appear to be listening, be patient. It may simply be that he has a small piece of fluff in his ear.” – A bear of very little brain. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6396 "2025-06-27T10:58:28Z")
This bears repeating. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6397 "2025-06-27T12:54:54Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Joking? Europe had brown bears. There was literally a bear-baiting place just down the road from the Globe, and Shakespeare probably borrowed a bear from them for that scene. They would have used black bears. Also, I think that the grizzlies of the American West are a little on the large size, for U. arctos, so might well be larger than the typical European brown bear. The population on Kodiak Island are even larger. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2025, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6398 "2025-06-27T16:30:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > a bear-baiting place … Shakespeare probably borrowed a bear from them for that scene. They would have used black bears. Cite? I find it unlikely that they would have used a live bear at all. It would be very dangerous, wouldn’t it. And [it is known](https://tobaccofactorytheatres.com/debugging-the-bear/) that other theatre companies of the time had bear costumes. And _A Midsummer Night’s Dream_ certainly has a play within a play featuring a lion played by a human actor. And can you cite that bear baiting would use a black bear? As I understand it, there are black bears native to America and Asia, but not Europe. Would they really have brought them all that distance? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2025, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6399 "2025-07-01T23:02:01Z")
OK, not quite “the millionth time”, but I’m currently reading the Codex Alara series, by Jim Butcher, and it took me until halfway through the second book to realize that the main character, Tavi, is short for “Octavius”. Which makes sense, given that he’s implied to be son of Septimus, son of Sextus. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2025, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6400 "2025-07-02T00:14:33Z")
It took me another book to catch on. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2025, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6401 "2025-07-02T00:17:21Z")
To the first spoiler, or the second? Because I thought the second one was a little too obvious. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2025, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6402 "2025-07-02T01:10:51Z")
The first. It’s been a while since I read them but I seem to remember at some point thinking that there had to be an unknown heir, but I never made the connection of “Tavi” being short for “Octavius”. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2025, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6403 "2025-07-02T04:22:23Z")
I was well into my thirties before I realized the name Liam was short for William. ---
**Author:** ![iamatractorboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iamatractorboy/32/21261_2.png) [@iamatractorboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamatractorboy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2025, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6404 "2025-07-02T05:23:41Z")
I’m older than that now and that’s new to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2025, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6405 "2025-07-02T10:21:46Z")
Around here with a large Irish American population Liam is by far more popular than William, and no Liam I know is actually named William. In fact, by googling I see that Liam is the most popular boys name in the US and William is tenth most popular. So maybe it’s not just an Irish thing. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2025, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6406 "2025-07-02T11:24:44Z")
> [@Catamount](#): > > I was well into my thirties before I realized the name Liam was short for William. I wouldn’t call it an abbreviation. “Liam” is an Irish version of William, just as “Wilhelm” is a German version and “Guillaume” is a French version. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=319) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=321)