# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 330
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2025, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6587 "2025-08-21T14:20:56Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think the scene you’re referring to is only on the European release. I’ve only seen it once, but I recall it’s from Sam’s POV; the flap covering his face and eyes is pulled back, and someone reads a list of charges, then it’s closed. Then opened again, and some is discussing options for how he can pay for his interrogation. I think there’s one other person he sees, too, but I can’t remember who. > > Is that the scene you’re thinking of, Hypno-Toad? Yeah, the awesome “meatpacking” sequence where prisoners are processed like hogs in a factory. A cool moment is how you think you’re looking at a mirror in the back showing Sam hanging on the conveyor while being addressed by the various men in gray suits but then you see the figure in the reflection moving on to the next stop on the line and you realize that it’s another, identical, processing line. During the reading of the charges, I noticed that they specifically list the forgery of Kurtzmans signature. I realized all the charges are spot on. He’s not being framed with trumped-up charges. And when the sequence starts, there are screams in the distance. The screams get louder with each stop, showing that Sam is getting closer and closer to some horrifying place. It culminates in the vision of the baby-masked creatures pouncing on Sam. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2025, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6588 "2025-08-21T21:52:35Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Edit: In fact I watched maybe two episodes ever, considered the TV show dispensible. (Despite Mickey’s being funny.) I was in sixth grade when The Monkees aired. I think that was the perfect time to watch it. The bits of the opening sequence that were set in sand dunes were shot at Hyperion, L.A.'s main wastewater treatment plant, in El Segundo. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2025, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6589 "2025-08-21T22:05:27Z")
> [@caligulathegod](#): > > So, a scant handful of slightly amusing songs out of over 120 negates my point that, musically, the Monkees were not a joke band? I concur- not a joke band. Originally a made up band, but they got better. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2025, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6590 "2025-08-22T04:58:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > More seriously - while fan-made deckplans no doubt predate anything official, by 1978-9 official toys with interiors (not to scale) were already being made. And by the early 80s when _Empire_ came out, Ralph Mcquarrie was producing official books with deck cutaways. I very much doubt _he_ based his ideas off fanart. Well that’s really my question. Who came up with all those interior layout and concept artworks, and more importantly, when? Because as I understand it the iconic Millennium Falcon was a rush job redesign after models were well along in fabrication on the original “pirate ship” design that for scraped for being too similar to the Space: 1999 Eagle. It kept the WWII throwback gun turrets and cockpit because that was the aesthetic Lucas wanted, but the flattened disk with a notch was inspired by a hamburger with a bite of of it. So whatever in-universe layers of shtick have been generated in the decades since, six weeks from concept to assembled model doesn’t leave much time for “why is there a notch there” when they have to justify gun turrets and smuggler holds. As for the toys, they’re interiors bear little resemblance to the movie interior other than a nod to the basic concepts - gun turret with seat, panel for smuggler bay, 3-D chess table. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Windows on an interstellar spacecraft should just be cute little skeuomorphs from the days of planes made of wood and fabric. Well granted on an interstellar craft windows don’t seem that useful, especially in hyperspace. But the Falcon has a weird system that has atmospheric engines and lands terrestrially or docks in space, but it’s apparently built to push large cargo containers around in space. Because using the falcon as a truck to haul cargo bins from one orbital port to another is conceivable, using it to lift oversized containers from surface doesn’t seem feasible - even with a magic space vehicle that bounces off planets. But perhaps the windows serve more purpose atmospherically or in close navigating for docking/ landing rather than during the space haul portion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2025, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6591 "2025-08-22T05:19:17Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Well that’s really my question. Who came up with all those interior layout and concept artworks, and more importantly, when? McQuarrie, I would venture to guess, and around the time of _Empire_. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6592 "2025-08-24T12:30:55Z")
Although I haven’t seen _Romeo and Juliet_ a million times, I’m going to throw caution to the winds and complain about this. In the famous balcony scene, Juliet bemoans the fact that her crush’s name is Romeo. It makes me wonder if she thinks her father would like it better if she introduced him as Irving Montague. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6593 "2025-08-24T12:37:33Z")
You’re saying it would make more sense for her to lament “Wherefore (i.e., why) are you a Montague?,” since the beef is with the family, not with the individual. I’ve wondered that myself! I suppose it’s Shakespeare emphasizing that, for Juliet, it _was_ just about this one individual – a nod to teenage obsession that (at that moment, at least) overpowered more logical language. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6594 "2025-08-25T01:19:48Z")
She’s not bemoaning that his name is Romeo, but rather that he _is_ Romeo. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6595 "2025-08-25T01:56:04Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > You’re saying it would make more sense for her to lament “Wherefore (i.e., why) are you a Montague?,” since the beef is with the family, not with the individual. It’s right there in the lines that follow, JULIET: O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo? **Deny thy father and refuse thy name** ; or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love, **and I’ll no longer be a Capulet**. ROMEO: [Aside] Shall I hear more, or shall I speak at this? JULIET: **'Tis but thy name that is my enemy; thou art thyself though, not a Montague.** What’s Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot, nor arm, nor face, nor any other part belonging to a man. **O, be some other name! What’s in a name?** That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet; So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call’d, retain that dear perfection which he owes without that title. Romeo, doff thy name, and for that name which is no part of thee take all myself. ROMEO: I take thee at thy word: call me but love, and I’ll be new baptized; henceforth I never will be Romeo. JULIET: What man art thou that thus bescreen’d in night so stumblest on my counsel? ROMEO: **By a name I know not how to tell thee who I am: My name, dear saint, is hateful to myself, because it is an enemy to thee; had I it written, I would tear the word.** JULIET: **My ears have not yet drunk a hundred words of that tongue’s utterance, yet I know the sound: art thou not Romeo and a Montague?** ROMEO: **Neither, fair saint, if either thee dislike.** ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6596 "2025-08-25T12:08:21Z")
Interesting - thanks. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that both Romeo and Juliet are almost haphazardly playing around with _both_ names – “Romeo” and “Montague” – and state that that either one marks him as an unjustified enemy. Even though it seems to _me_ that he need only only shed the “Montague,” they both think otherwise – maybe since “Romeo” was bestowed on him _by_ the family. A bit like some Black Muslims shedding both their “slaveholder-imposed” names, not just the surname (though Malcolm X did keep his). Maus\_Magill – that makes sense – “why did I have to fall in love with YOU, of all people?” – but the subsequent dialogue then does focus on the name, and the (poignant, we-can-only-pretend) “solution” of changing it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6597 "2025-08-25T13:00:14Z")
I think it’s suggesting, at least, that if you’re in the vicinity of Verona and you mention Romeo or Juliet, people are going to take it for granted that you’re talking about Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet. That they’re both stuck with identities that they can not get rid of. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6598 "2025-08-25T16:51:13Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > if you’re in the vicinity of Verona and you mention Romeo or Juliet… … someone is bound to say “Those two idiot teenagers?” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6599 "2025-08-25T17:01:37Z")
Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2025, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6600 "2025-08-27T18:57:22Z")
I’ve watched The Good Place, I don’t even know how many times now. Plus, if you put a Good Place youtube video in my feed, I’ll probably watch it. For all the times I’ve watched it, I’ve never noticed that when Janet plays the audio clip of The Bad Place, someone screams ‘THE BEAR HAS TWO MOUTHS’. Never noticed it, not once. (Though it seems like plenty of other people have heard it and someone mentioned that if you turn on the captions, it shows up there as well) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/QQztZd48UaE/hqdefault.jpg "The Good Place - Eleanor meets Janet") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQztZd48UaE&t=57) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2025, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6601 "2025-08-27T20:21:47Z")
I’ve currently got the_Fantasia_ soundtrack playing on my Echo. It made me wonder how many people heard “Dance of the Hours” and thought Alan Sherman! v. how many heard _Night on Bald Mountain_ and thought Escape! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6602 "2025-08-28T09:53:57Z")
For the olderer folks, “Dance of the Hours” may also remind them of [Spike Jones’ rendition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1fSnzmCtGQ). ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2025, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6603 "2025-08-30T16:40:15Z")
There’s a current music thread that has a bit of a hijack going about Emerson Lake & Palmer and the song “Lucky Man”. There was a German prog rock band called Triumvirat who were contemporaries of ELP and even sometimes referred to as “the German ELP”. Triumvirat’s “Illusions On A Double Dimple” album contains two album-side-length suites. Side two, “Mister Ten Percent”, has a section titled “Lucky Girl”, which it just recently occurred to me could easily be a poke at ELP’s “Lucky Man”. It even has a cheesy synth solo! ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2025, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6604 "2025-09-08T22:34:27Z")
The death of **Rick Davies** has me going through some Supertramp tunes, and if I had ever known that the cover of _Breakfast in America_ had the NY skyline done in restaurant shapes, I’d forgotten it a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2025, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6605 "2025-09-08T23:11:01Z")
I just looked at it and same here. Either I never knew or I forgot so completely that seeing it didn’t even remind me. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2025, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/6606 "2025-09-09T14:45:17Z")
But that’s not all, man. If you hold the record cover in front of a mirror, the ‘u’ and the ‘p’ in SUPERTRAMP clearly become 9 11…sticking right out of the World Trade Center!!!1!! They knew, man. Way back then, they knew. And the orange juice held by the Statue of Liberty waitress? Right in front of those buildings? That’s representing fire, man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=329) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=331)